COSMOFACTORY

This transcript is automatically generated.
Deanna: [00:00:00] In this episode, we're talking about formulation creativity; about the inspiration, strategy, and pace of product innovation; about celebrity brands; the convergence of beauty and wellness; about mentorship for cosmetic scientists; and more. With me for this episode of the CosmoFactory Podcast is Akshay Talati, Vice President of Product Development, Research and Innovation, and Regulatory for Beauty and Wellness at goop.
Deanna: Welcome.
Akshay: Thank you for having me and I am looking forward to this [00:01:00] conversation.
Deanna: Yes, I am as well. Thank you. So Akshay, I've heard you say before that innovation in formulation is often driven by raw material manufacturers. Can you share a little bit about your thinking there?
Akshay: Yeah. So, you know, I have been in the cosmetic industry about 30 years; and there are four key pillars of innovation that you can focus on. So obviously the first one is consumers or consumers insight. Second is chemists or formulation scientists. Third is brands or marketers; and fourth is raw material manufacturers But in my opinion in this four scenarios raw material manufacturers do lead the front. And for various reasons, right? Innovation is all relative.
Akshay: Like for consumers, they are reactive to what they need. They may not know what they want. But they see, based on the media or marketing, and they influence the products that eventually come out in the market. And for them, like [00:02:00] a new lipstick with a different shade is innovation or a formula upgraded with watermelon extract is innovation, right?
Akshay: And then now if you take R&D formulators, a new way to stabilize vitamin C, or using exosomes in a formula is innovation, or replacing silicone with some other material is innovation. For brand marketing, a new mission statement or vegan statement, new packaging, that is all innovation. Now, when it comes to raw material manufacturer, it is slightly different.
Akshay: So they rise up to all challenges that are thrown at them. So over the last 30 years, whenever there is a regulation issue, like parabens, silicones, some preservatives, carcinogens, they always innovate to come up with the challenges; and they set the tone in the market. They are right now setting the tone in the [00:03:00] market by coming up with biotech ingredients, the microbiome ingredients, sustainability, upcycling.
Akshay: And then these ingredients are fed into the brands or the formulators who then create the ideation based on what is created. Because you could have an idea, but if the ingredient doesn't exist, you cannot create the idea. So I do think that they are championing a lot of the innovation.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's very well said. Something further there?
Akshay: I was just saying, so of course all four pillars are part of the journey, but I think there is a slight edge that the raw material manufacturers have.
Deanna: Excellent. Thank you for that. Now, I know that you're a pharmacist by training and that this is not unusual in the cosmetic science space, but can you just share a little bit about your background and help us make the link between pharmacy and cosmetic science?
Akshay: Yeah. So this is a journey I love sharing. So I grew up in Mumbai in [00:04:00] an entrepreneurial pharmaceutical family. So my grandfather, my father, both were pharmacists. And my, my son is also a pharmacist. So we are like four generations of pharmacists. Initially I wanted to go into medical school, but the heritage influenced me to go into pharmacy or pharmaceutical sciences.
Akshay: So after completing my bachelor's in India, then I came over to US to do my master's in pharmaceutical sciences, where I first learned how to develop and my research was on transdermal drug delivery. So that led me into topical skincare. And then my first job was in a pharmaceutical company making topical prescription and OTC products like steroids, pain medications, antifungal.
Akshay: And then after that, there was a, you know, I had a chance to go into a retail pharmacy. So I still have a license to practice pharmacy, but I always was inclined [00:05:00] on the sciences, the research, the innovation, the molecular behavior of skin and all that. So there was a job available at that time. I'm going back 30 years at Estée Lauder.
Akshay: And then I transitioned from pharmaceuticals to cosmetics and the transition was much easier because I had already a base in developing topical products; and I had a good mentor in my first job. And then I can say, since joining Estée Lauder, it's been 30 years and it has been an amazing journey, going through 23 different brands, coming up with so many legacy products there.
Akshay: Some of the products that I created like almost 25, 30 years ago are still on the shelf. They still are selling and people are still upgrading them. I went to India last year and gave a lecture at the university I studied at; and they are opening a [00:06:00] cosmetic program in India.
Akshay: And I told them that guys, look, it's very easy transition. And right now the cosmetic industry in India is booming. So I had given a lecture of how you can transition from pharmaceuticals to cosmetics.
Deanna: Excellent. Excellent. I love that. Can you share with us a little bit about how you approach your own work in terms of formulation creativity? How do you, how do you get started? What's the inspiration?
Akshay: Yeah. So, you know, it obviously I have personally evolved over the last 30 years. But I feel that in the beauty industry, innovation is the driving force. And the big breakthrough innovation is something that makes people's life easier, convenient, and makes a dirty task easier. However, a lot of those groundbreaking innovations don't happen every year.
Akshay: What you are seeing every year is incremental innovation. So the groundbreaking bigger breakthroughs happen [00:07:00] maybe once in 10 years or something like that. But over the years I have learned—and this is how I create my innovation—a lot of my inspiration comes to me from outside the beauty industry.
Akshay: So I look at the food industry. If you go and walk into a grocery store, you will pretty much see that beauty has become food. You will see broccoli extract, pomegranate extract, aloe, ashwagandha, olive oil. Pretty much everything from the food industry comes into beauty at a certain point.
Akshay: So you have to keep your eyes and ears open on what's happening in the food industry and nutraceutical industry. I also look at the paint industry, like what are the new dispersion techniques of pigments like titanium dioxide, reflective pigments. I still subscribe to all the newsletters from the pharmaceutical and dermatology industry.
Akshay: Like, is there a new [00:08:00] pathway for longevity or cellular aging? There are a lot of molecules which transfer from the pharmaceutical industry to beauty like tranexamic acid, azelaic acid, retinoids. And then finally, I also strongly believe that nature has solutions to all our problems. Example: biomimicry.
Akshay: Majority of the world's population still relies on nature for medicine. I remember—I'm giving an example—many years ago when I was with Estée Lauder, I was in a breakthrough thinking [team] for a long term innovation, and we actually took field days outside: we went to the botanical gardens; we went to the Bronx Zoo; we went to the museum. We also interviewed NASA scientists. We got inspiration from outside; and we came up with like 100 ideas. And we actually launched three ideas from that into market. So I strongly believe, yes, you will definitely [00:09:00] be fed innovation from the raw material suppliers, from consumer insights. But to create that something different out in the market, you have to go outside the comfort zone.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's wonderful. I love that. I think it makes very good sense.
Akshay: I want to just add one more thing on that: being in the industry so long, I also say that most of the ideas or ingredients…are recycled, they're cyclical. So I worked on retinol, vitamin C 30 years ago. They're still strong. I worked on antioxidants maybe 25 years ago. Now they are relaunched as adaptogens. I worked on mushrooms. Now they have come back as fermented mushrooms. So there is a lot of recycling of ideas and technology. Like the biggest trend right now of the color changing lipstick. It was there [00:10:00] 15 years ago. It has just come back. And that's why, people under me and my team, I always tell them that no idea is a bad idea.
Akshay: It all depends on how your idea and your brand resonates with that to the consumer.
Deanna: No, that's wonderful. Thank you so much. In an earlier conversation, I heard you using terms like calendar innovation and long term innovation. Do these mean the same thing? Do they kind of equate to what you were describing there at Estée Lauder with a brainstorming approach?
Akshay: Yeah. I have a unique background. I have worked in three of the largest multinationals: Estée Lauder, Unilever, L'Oréal. And I have also worked on acquisition brands, for the brands that these large companies acquired. And I work right now for a smaller brand, an independent brand: goop.
Akshay: So I have a perspective of innovation from all ways of thinking. So usually in the larger brands, they have…Let's go back. Calendar innovation basically means anything that you're working on for zero to three years.
Akshay: So this could, this could be filling a gap in the portfolio, making a current product better, like a hero product better [by] reacting to some trend in the market, reacting to a consumer insight. And these projects go through a stage gate process. So there are stage gates along the way. The formulators are looking to create beautiful textures, sensorial appeal.
Akshay: They want great performance. Failure is less expected in calendar innovation, because the expectation is that when products are in calendar innovation, lot of the kinks are already resolved. Of course failures can [00:12:00] happen, but it's expected less in the calendar innovation. Now, in contrast, there is long term innovation.
Akshay: Long term innovation is something you are working [on for] three to eight years—so the example I gave you about my breakthrough thinking, where we went to the NASA scientists and all that. Basically long-term innovation is done in separate groups, like new venture, or advanced research, or long-term innovation teams.
Akshay: And their job is to create new molecules, new biologies, new chemistries, working with incubators, startups, or even universities to come up with that breakthrough idea. Failures are more over there, and it's expected. You work on maybe 10 ideas; you invest the money; and then you narrow [it] down [to] the top two or three, which now funnel down to the brand innovation labs.
Akshay: The risk taking is higher. Also the goal of this long term [00:13:00] innovation is to patent ideas. And these are the larger bets. This model is more for the larger multinationals. Now, when you come up with all these acquisition brands—I have done so many acquisitions, maybe 20 acquisitions for these multinationals—in these smaller brands both these groups are collapsed into one. That's why they are faster.
Akshay: They take more risks because they are relying on a lot of external parties for their innovation. And that's why all these smaller innovators are actually disrupting the trend outside. And then the multinational acquired it. That's how the cycle is.
Deanna: Yeah. No, thank you for clarifying. That makes very good sense. I really appreciate that. Now, you've mentioned throughout the conversation, your experience with major multinationals, Estée Lauder, L'Oréal, as well as smaller brands. I'm wondering if we can think about supply chain partnerships.
Deanna: Can you [00:14:00] contrast your experience with these larger organizations and now with a smaller brand, what do your supply chain relationships look like?
Akshay: Supply chain partners strongly with in both groups, right? Either it's a small company or the larger companies, but there's bigger stake involved in the larger companies. You are launching millions of units. You are doing global launches.
Akshay: You are manufacturing the same product in multiple sites. So like I have launched products, which have launched globally. And at the same time manufactured at a US site, a China site, a Europe site. So there's a lot of logistics involved, like how to get the same packaging, the same timeline, the scale-up processes, getting the same quality raw materials to all three manufacturing sites.
Akshay: So supply chain has different involvement at different scale in both organizations. [00:15:00] I would say stage gates are there at both organizations, of course at different levels. Stage gate in a smaller organization is like picking up a phone call and making a decision fast. But in a larger organization, you have to go up the supply chain team.
Akshay: We have a product failure; what do we do? There is a launch delay; do we get larger stakes stakeholders involved to make the decision? But overall, I would say the scenarios are the same; just the groups are larger and the decision process probably takes a little longer in the larger organization versus the smaller.
Deanna: If you could give advice to supply chain partners, maybe for working with a smaller brand, I'm assuming many are quite familiar with working with the multinationals. How would you suggest that they partner? What could they do to serve a smaller brand more effectively?
Akshay: I think so. I think the first thing comes that supply chain [00:16:00] partners or even raw material manufacturers who want to work with smaller organizations is first to have that strong relationship and trust built with the product development and marketing teams. Right? That relationship and trust is the key thing.
Akshay: On building that trust: Okay, we are holding hands together. If there is a delay, we can work together. I strongly believe there is no issue that cannot be resolved.
Deanna: Yeah.
Akshay: I pretty much have launched maybe more than [a] thousand products in my career. I have only missed ship dates on two products so far. I strongly believe everything can be worked out to (obviously) some extent. The relationship matters. And of course, then comes the service level, right? The transparency in communication. Okay, if there is a raw material delay, be transparent in communication. The timeline should be properly captured.
Akshay: But I think the key word is transparency [00:17:00] and information sharing.
Deanna: Very good. Very good.
Akshay: And I think a lot of these supply chain partners, they work with—well, [at] the smaller companies it’s different—but in the multinational, they work with all tiers. They also work with the advanced research teams. The mid-tier application labs; and they work with brand labs also.
Akshay: So it's just the transparency in the information share.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. Very good. So I know you've been to some of the Cosmoprof trade fairs for your work. And in fact, I think you were in Cosmoprof Worldwide Bologna this year for the first time. I'm just curious. You can answer this question briefly for me; how do trade fairs like that figure into your work or career?
Akshay: Yeah. So, you know, I have been very fortunate that the organizations I have worked for, they allowed me to participate in external trade shows. And to be honest, it's really important for chemists, [00:18:00] formulators, product developers to expose themselves to what happens in the field outside. Over the years have been to New York Suppliers’ Day, in-cosmetics, MakeUp in New York, dermatology conferences, IFSCC. This year for the first time I went to Cosmoprof Bologna. And to be honest—because I had gone there as a part of the jury committee for the [Cosmoprof and Cosmopack] Awards, as well as I spoke in the longevity panel talk—I have to say that this show was like no other I have been to before. The sheer scale of the show, I would say there were thousands and thousands of vendors. I was able to meet with people from all around the world, representing brands, raw material manufacturers, packaging suppliers, contract manufacturers, even brand founders and, equipment manufacturers.
Akshay: Also I saw a [00:19:00] lot of trends and actually a couple of those trends, which I saw at the show, I have already implemented into my products for 2025 and 2026. So for me to attend these kinds of shows, it's very important for me and my career. It allows me to build my network. It allows me to build stronger relations with vendors or customers.
Akshay: Because of my network, if I have an issue of supply or something, I just pick up a call, Hey guys, can you do it? And they say, Akshay for you, I'll ship it overnight. Right? So it's the strong relationships you make. You are also interacting with intellectuals with a different expertise. And you are meeting some of the brightest minds in the industry.
Akshay: So if you're sitting in your office secluded from everything, you will not get the exposure. Of course you have a lot of information available online nowadays, but I think you need that human connection in person also.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah.
Akshay: And I recommend [00:20:00] it, for especially the new people coming into the industry. Try to go. If your company allows or your time allows, try to go to local shows. Get involved in local chapters of…if there's Society of Cosmetic Chemists of days under the trade show. Go there, meet people, make your connections.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And you're mentioning of the SCC, the Society of Cosmetic Chemists, I know that's important for your work, and that you do some mentorship of cosmetic scientists through that role. Can you say a little bit about that?
Akshay: Yeah, so I have been in the leadership position at Society of Cosmetic Chemists for many years. This year I'm the Vice President of the Society; and next year I'll be the President of Society of Cosmetic Chemists. Mentorship is very near and dear to my heart. And I'm very excited that this year, actually, Society of Cosmetic Chemists is launching their one-on-one [00:21:00] mentorship program, which will be available to all its members.
Akshay: I currently mentor many people; and I have done many over the years. They range from students to mid-career to senior people; and I also mentor a lot of startup founders. The mentorship is very different depending on who I speak to. For startup founders, they'll, they want insights on how to launch their brand, how to go through the hurdles of development. For entry level students or chemists, they want to look for jobs. For mid-career people, they want to maybe change jobs. Or they want to network with me on what to do.
Akshay: They are stagnant in their growth in the company. What should they do to rise in the company. Or sometimes some people just call me, Hey, I need help with troubleshooting a formula. Can you help me out? [00:22:00] I personally credit my journey to my mentors. They have helped me. And I always tell my mentees that you should have two mentors.
Akshay: You should have an inspirational mentor. An inspirational mentor is somebody who is more like themselves [that] they can trust. It could be a family member. It could be a professor. It could be somebody at work. They give them guidance and comfort; so they calm them down, right? They support them and all. But at the same time, you need the aspirational mentors. Aspirational mentors are like your role models.
Akshay: They are completely opposite to you. They are leaders that you strive for. They are somebody—they are visionaries—they are somebody you aspire to be. And the reason I tell [them] that the aspirational mentors are important is because they will be the ones who will take you, push you out of the comfort zone.
Akshay: Mentorship is more like… [00:23:00] If the mentee could do what they could, they will not need a mentor, right? So they need somebody to push them out, challenge them. And I think usually, it is the aspirational mentor, the role models. They'll say, Hey, what's the fear? Do it. And they will challenge them. So I definitely say that; try to combine both.
Deanna: Fantastic. Thank you for that. I promised everyone listening we would touch on the topic of celebrity brands. goop, where you work now is a brand founded by Gwyneth Paltrow. I just am curious to ask you if celebrity leadership does or does not influence your product innovation strategies or the work you do.
Akshay: I have worked with many celebrity founders; and celebrity founders definitely have positive influences. They come with a unique perspective. They have their individual style and taste, which can lead to innovative products. They have a sense of brand awareness. Celebrity founders can leverage their fame; and [00:24:00] there is a brand awareness immediately when you launch the product, right?
Akshay: You don't need too much marketing. There's authenticity. Celebrities often create products that are reflective of their personal beliefs and values. Celebrities also allow for creative freedom and risk taking. They are more willing to take a risk and challenge the conventional standards. At the same time now, you have to balance it out, right?
Akshay: Sometimes the celebrity’s image may overshadow product performance and innovation, because their image is so strong outside in the market. Sometimes celebrity promotion could also…consumers might think that is more a marketing tactic or it is not innovation, it is more of a gimmick, or it's not genuine.
Akshay: Sometimes celebrities may not have the formulation expertise or the science. However, all these negative things [00:25:00] can be easily overcome by having the celebrity involved in the day-to-day brand development. At goop, Gwyneth Paltrow is, daily, involved in [the] product development process with us.
Akshay: And you need to have a strong scientific, regulatory, and product development team, which she has. You need the partnership of both, the balance of the celebrity involvement as well as a strong scientific, legal regulatory team…so you have the best of both worlds, the risk taking, the challenge, but also staying within the limits of true science and innovation.
Deanna: Yeah. That's a great perspective. Thank you for that. Just before we wrap up, I want to talk a little bit about the convergence of beauty and wellness that we see in the industry. I'm wondering if you approach product development or even research and innovation for wellness differently than you would say, maybe conventional skincare products.
Deanna: Is there a divide there?
Akshay: The overall formulation process obviously is the same. [00:26:00] But there is a difference right now, because, [for] example, when there is a wellness trend, you cannot just create products which do not have an emotional appeal or the neurobiological affinity. You need the balance of the emotional connection.
Akshay: Right now, when I develop products, I make a special note that the ingredients I choose are planet friendly. They're sustainable. They're upcycled. The fragrances are all natural [and] have an emotional connection.
Akshay: The ingredients used also have to have a connection—Example: you use botanicals or superfoods, which the consumers can relate from their day to day lives. And the textures, the textures have to give a sensorial immediate gratification. But I feel that the next chapter of wellness will be the mind-body connection where mental wellbeing and physical appearances are interconnected.
Akshay: [00:27:00] There will be accelerated growth in neurocosmetics with aesthetic and feel good benefits. People are looking for psychodermatology concepts. So I think the ultimate message is that beauty is wellness, and wellness is beauty.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, this has been a very thoughtful interview, Akshay. I thank you for joining me today on the CosmoFactory podcast.
Akshay: Thank you so much, Deanna. And thank you for having me.
Deanna: Yes. [00:28:00]