COSMOFACTORY

Deanna: [00:00:00] This episode is about creating products that are on brand and aligned with consumer expectations. It's about raw material selection. About the knowledge sharing that is made possible by Workforce Mobility, and it's about the link between product development and brand valuation here at Cosmoprof Worldwide.
Bologna. Jeff Roseberg, head of R&D d at Trinny London is joining me now in the CosmoFactory Podcast recording booth. Jeff, welcome to the CosmoFactory Podcast.
Jeff: Thank you so much for [00:01:00] having me. Excited to be here.
Deanna: Yeah, you're welcome. I appreciate your making time to speak with me during CosmoProf. Um.
So Jeff, I am getting to speak with you at a very exciting moment in your career. You joined the team at Trinny London in January with a mandate to drive product innovation forward in and beyond skincare. So super cool.
Jeff: Yeah, really excited. It's been, it's been a whirlwind so far. 'cause I come from a very different background in terms of a big multinational.
So being at really an independently led founder of LED business has been. Eye-opening in a lot of ways and in a lot of exciting ways.
Deanna: Yeah. Oh, excellent. So I think it's fair to say that science continually advances, right, new ingredients regularly become available. Consumer expectations are always evolving.
Most brands, I think it's fair to say this, most brands are aiming to drive innovation forward. Um, but will you please tell us about how you are approaching product innovation and new product development? What does that that mean to you to drive innovation forward?
Jeff: Yeah, so ultimately. The way I see it is innovation kind of takes two paths.
So in some instances [00:02:00] you have decision makers or, so in our case we have Trinny who's ultimately the, the owner of the brand. So she has what she's looking for. She has her own routine, she has her own benefit she's looking for, and she basically tasks us with going to figure out how to figure out how to do it.
Yeah. Um, in the best way possible. In other instances, we might identify that there's an a gap in a space, so maybe there's a benefit that the products that are on the market now really aren't filling very well. So we identify that as a start. Or my favorite route is we actually identify really cool technology.
And again, it can come from anywhere, it can come from universities, it can come from a great raw material suppliers. Um, but it's really about having an open mind and searching for things. And then when you find them, having the creative connect on how to actually leverage it and bring it to life. In this instance for the Trinity London brand.
Deanna: Yeah.
Jeff: Um, so yeah, so, and I think the most important thing is to be very clear at the start in terms of what you're trying to do. 'cause I think the more, um, obscure the idea is, or the, the, the less you know [00:03:00] about what you're trying to do, makes it very difficult as you actually going through the execution phase of a product, um, from the development end.
'cause you're never sure if is it good enough? Is it delivering enough? Obviously there's a lot of work that goes in. To make sure that you're happy with the product before you actually start doing the big test. So whether we're doing a clinical test or a big user trial, um, obviously those are very big.
They take a long time. They are very expensive, so you don't want to have to do that multiple times. So again, knowing what it is you're trying to communicate, what's that story you're trying to develop for the consumer so that you can get them excited about wanting to try the product and then ensuring that the product itself is gonna deliver to that.
So that's really the, the biggest challenge. From, I would say within the industry is trying to get that balance right of an exciting story that actually delivers, and again, hopefully it kind of comes to fruition 'cause the consumer continues to buy that product time after time after time. And kind of the goal is to kind of create what we would call legacy products.
So something that we don't have to replace year after year after [00:04:00] year. Something that can, we can launch it. We feel so confident behind it that it's gonna sit and be part of our portfolio for. Multiple years to come.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh, that's, that's very helpful to hear. So this brand started in color cosmetics.
That's true. Um, expanded into skincare and those categories fit nicely together now. Right. Especially in terms of, of consumer expectations. But I'm, I'm curious to learn how you and the team at Trinity London will make decisions particularly about what product categories make sense for the brand. Can you say anything about the decision making process or criteria around sort of next brand extensions, if there will be some.
Jeff: So ultimately it, it has to start with Trinny herself. So it's her brand. Um, it needs to be something that she's passionate about and believe me, she's got a lot of passions in a lot of places. So it's more about, once we kind of identify what is it that gets her excited, it then comes into kind of the second tier would be, well, does it make sense for Trinny London, the brand?
Mm-hmm. Um, because again. Lots of exciting things that are out there, but not necessarily everything that's possible belongs in every single brand. So it's [00:05:00] about kind of that as the next stage. And then it's about overall, what is the overall opportunity to bring business into the brand as well. 'cause obviously we need to make sure that the technology, the opportunity space, whatever it might be, is gonna be something that's going to create value for the brand overall.
And then it's about kind of. Is there something in that space that we can do differently? Is there a unique technology, a unique approach for how we can go about trying to solve the problem? Because what's very clear is what we don't want to be as a brand, that's just a follower. We don't want to, uh, see somebody else do something and then our do a slight tweak to it and call it ours.
And to be honest, we want to do something ideally that's so innovative that somebody else can't copy us very quickly either. So again, it's a big challenge. Again, that's why I've, I've joined. The brand. 'cause there's a big exciting opportunity there. Obviously there's a lot of challenges ahead to get there and that's what gets me going in the morning is having these, those exciting challenges and trying to identify what's the most unique, creative way to get that to those resolutions or solutions or products or [00:06:00] services or whatever it might be.
That's the right thing to, to solve that consumer benefit.
Deanna: Yeah, yeah. No, I love it. I love just. sort of imagining and understanding, right? How, how much our minds love to solve problems. And you, if you put a fun problem in front of your mind, um, it's it's fun to solve it, isn't it?
Jeff: Exactly. It's so rewarding too.
Especially, this is what's one of the very unique things about our industry is getting to have, I mean, there's a lot of emotion at play when we talk about skin co skincare or color care or color cosmetics. And when you actually watch a consumer use the product, you. They don't even have to say things. In a lot of instances, you can see the joy coming through them as they use them.
Obviously with skincare then there's, we need them to continue to use them to actually get more of the benefit long term. And even when I first started in the industry, and again, I was relatively fresh out of college at my previous employer and we were doing some consumer testing. And again, I didn't really appreciate the industry at that stage.
It was just, I was learning how to make product, which of course basically is kitchen. Like [00:07:00] I'm almost like you're cooking in the kitchen. I'm trying to learn how to make the. The next, uh, face cream at the time, and this is one of the stories I tell quite a bit, so apologies if it doesn't resonate here, but, um, I remember we were in a process where we were trying to improve the formulation we had.
Sure. And we were setting it up where we were setting it out with a small panel of consumers every week. And every week we would give a new version of the product and then get their feedback. Okay. And I remember distinctly there was this one woman again, this goes back probably 20 years at this stage.
Yeah. But this is how much it, it resonated with me at the time. And she came in and she was very, she didn't, it looked like she didn't. Really pay too much attention to her parents. She was wearing like a sweatsuit, um, sorry, coming from the us. It's a sweatsuit. I know it might be tracksuit depending on where you are.
Um, but she very much just came in, gave me the product. I'm looking to make my $10 or whatever it was at the time, and then goes away. When she came back after using that product for a week, she had completely dressed up for the occasion. She had done her like a full face of makeup. She had done her hair and she just said, I don't know what it is about this product, but it makes me feel [00:08:00] better.
And it was just how the product. Was on her skin at the time and what she could see from it. She just saw the change and the confidence that she then, like it just beca, like it boosted her, her own self-confidence. And again, to have that sort of, I'll say power. 'cause ultimately that's what it feels like is you have this power to really bring that much benefit to somebody's life.
And again, I think sometimes the industry can be like, do you really need it? But in reality, there's so much that's so much good that comes from the industry. And again, it gives people. Number one choice on how they want to behave in it or how they want to help their skin, or how they want to make their skin look.
And again, again, at at, at the end of the day, there's so much that we can bring. So again, it, it comes back to that initial challenge and, and problem. That's what gets me excited is having something that's really hard to solve. I'm not, don't really like just changing a fragrance and calling it a new product.
I mean, obviously that's part of the industry, but
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's a great. Um, great anecdote. I, you know, I think there is [00:09:00] so much that, um, people can access through cosmetics and, and personal care products, for sure. I wanna, um, keep moving through my, um, questions for you here. Um, Trinity London, we know started in the online world and, and certainly continues to do well in the D two C space.
One theme that we can see in the brand social media is clinical testing results, product efficacy, which you've, you've certainly suggested in your remarks here. On social media, if I may, this is marketing, right, but in practice it has to do with many factors and certainly one of those is raw material selection.
Can you say a bit about how you go, you know, go about identifying ingredients that are going to be a fit for the brand and then starting to determine, you know, percent and formulation and what's right for your customer in terms of raw materials?
Jeff: Yeah, and again, there's several different approaches. So for the most part.
The industry, the, especially within our, our amazing raw material suppliers, they are continuing trying to push the envelope, trying to bring new innovation. Um, again, there's loads of trade shows just like cosmoprof. Um, there's a few others in the industry where [00:10:00] those, uh, suppliers really focus on rolling out the new technology.
Again, what's so amazing about this industry is the networking that. Allows you to find out some of these new things even before they're actually properly announced, you can already start to think about, how could I do something like that? Sure. Or is that the right type of ingredient For me, separately, I do have a bit of open innovation in my background, so scouting is also something, so again, maybe sometimes we see where the industry is going and we want to do it a little bit differently.
So what you can do is set up some sort of a scouting activity and really try to dig into pockets of technology that maybe were not as. I'm familiar with to see if there's an opportunity there that we can put our spin on and bring it to life in a different end product than even what the designers of the 'cause.
It could be a university as an example. They may have no idea about the cosmetic industry. Yep, yep. Um, but again, getting into them early and then working with a raw material supplier to help you commercialize it. So that, and then separately, there's, again, there's starting to be more ai, more digitally led services and, and websites and things that [00:11:00] can help you search, right.
Um, to find, so again, if you don't have that immediate raw material partner. That comes to mind in a certain space. Um, generally you can find where to start there. Um, when it comes to actually the percentage in the formulation, it comes down to individual ingredients. What are they meant to do? How much do you need to put in a product?
How effective is it? Is it at its bioavailability or to ability to kind of penetrate into the skin and get to where it needs to go in order to do the benefit it needs to do. Um, again, from a Trinity London perspective, we want to use the proper amount and sometimes even more because we want to see if maybe.
If we added just a little bit more, it'll be a little bit better. And again, so again, in the end, it comes back to the efficacy that we can deliver out of the product. That's the most important thing. So if that means we've gotta put in at 5%, 10%, some cases 20%, let's go with it. And I. Let the testing kind of tell us is it good enough?
If not, then we go back and add more, or we look at a different type of technology.
Deanna: Sure, sure. And, and when we think about maybe some higher percentage [00:12:00] formulations as well as, you know, newer ingredients, this can often equate to higher costs. Right. Certainly. You're not working in lar, you know, I, I should say maybe you are working in larger volumes than some small boutique brands would, but, um, also, I imagine you're not buying ingredients at the same scale that maybe, you know, L'Oreal or Unilever might.
How does ingredient price influence what products you can create and launch, especially at a, at a brand like this?
Jeff: Yeah, I think what's been refreshing about Trinity London is obviously it is a point we need to consider. We need to ensure that the end product that we design is something that is business profitable.
But it's not the only decision factor. Um, there's a lot of things amongst the entire, um, business case that you have influence over. And if you only ever look at product cost, you end up sacrificing too much in the place of what the consumer's actually buying. Mm-hmm. So let our very talented team figure out different solutions to try to make other parts of the business case more affordable so that that can allow us to spend more money on the [00:13:00] formulation.
Similar with packaging. So what's the right amount of. Spend, again, with the sustainability continuing to evolve and more, again, refill type systems are more expensive than non refill type systems, yet the brands decided from a start we're going with refill systems. Mm-hmm. Um, so again, it is, obviously, it's important.
We need to make sure that by selling the product, the, the business is healthy. But again, if you don't make products that people want to buy and see the benefit from, then it's ultimately not worth doing. So, yeah,
Deanna: no, that's, that's very nice to hear actually, I, it. It's rare, you know, for, for someone with your job.
And maybe other people are saying it, they're just not saying it to me. But, you know, to think about the other business units in terms of balancing out costs, because so often I, I do hear, you know, formulators, you know, just sort of tasked with keeping a price, you know, under a certain benchmark, um, and, and going from there.
But to think about, um, how you can share that or, or balance it among the different business units. That's, that's, that's refreshing. I like that. Um. As, as you have mentioned, you have [00:14:00] worked with one of the top five global beauty market makers, um, for most of your career. In fact, I, I'm wondering if, if from that perspective, you might be able to share what independent brands can learn from multinationals in terms of, uh, innovation and product development, and then maybe vice versa.
What can, what can the multinationals learn from indies?
Jeff: Yeah, and again, it's still early days, so I'm sure I'm gonna learn a lot more over the coming years as well. You've observed
Deanna: something I know.
Jeff: Yeah, so I would say one of the, the, the most obvious things is. Um, because of the smaller brands, feels like everything is urgent because you're trying to get so many products to the market quickly because, so again, the brand can continue to grow and sometimes the urgency outweighs the important tasks that may not be as glamorous, but are ultimately critical in order to set the business up properly.
So we can not just do it once, but we can repeat repeatedly do it. Um, so just as an example, trying to get the right infrastructure in place. So again, if we need to do a proper clinical test, who do you actually work with from a clinical testing perspective? Waiting until you need [00:15:00] it. Then delays your ability to actually execute the overall clinical test and then ultimately watch.
Right. But if you find a
Deanna: reliable partner, you know that that's some, someone you can go back to. Is that, is that kind of what you're suggesting? Yeah, exactly. Okay. So
Jeff: finding those right partners that you know you can go to and then you can get things set up properly even is boring and, and unfortunately, as it sounds like, getting the right NDAs in place is really important or the right agreement so that when you do work with a partner, everybody's clear on the ways of working.
Everybody's clear on what we're each responsible for in, in the relationship and. Again, sometimes when you're going so fast, you kind of, oh, that's not that important. We'll, we'll cross that bridge when we get there, side of sort of thing. But ultimately it's easier to do it upfront, to be honest. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Um, I'd say the other way around, what's been really refreshing is I think two things. So one is the, the business as a whole. Everybody is involved in beauty in one way or another. Whereas I think in the larger companies, it. It's a job to do and whether or not you have a passion for skincare or passion for any of the, the category you're actually selling may or may not be there.[00:16:00]
Whereas in a business like this, you have to know the industry. You have to be passionate about the industry or else it's because of what you're asked to do and the speed and the overall, like just the responsibilities you have. If, if you don't live it and breathe it, it's gonna wear you out quickly. So.
I'd say that's one piece is to make sure you have the right people in, in the right places with the right passions. Mm-hmm. And then separate to that is, I would say, around decision making. So I think in my previous life, it felt like what we were doing a lot was trying to gather data and then more data and more data.
How can I present that data on a PowerPoint deck and convince the, the senior above this is the right thing to do. That senior would then need to convince that's the, their senior, that it's the right thing to do. So it felt like. There's a lot of conversations, a lot of discussions about what to do, but not a lot of action on it.
Deanna: Yeah. It's almost, if I can jump in, it reminds me of that sort of perfectionist mentality, right? And, and the, the corollary to that is, what did they say? Progress over perfection. Exactly.
Jeff: Whereas again, in, in a smaller brand, it [00:17:00] is, you don't have the luxury of time to wait, because if you wait too long. The opportunity has passed or the brand now suffers as a result of it.
Obviously you need to be responsible as well. You can't take too rash of a decision and obviously you need to think things through. Safety's still very important. You can't cut corners there as an example. Yeah. But that would be what I would say is, again, something the the big guys can learn is about really having the right people in the right roles, making the right decisions, and trusting yes.
Trusting those people to make those decisions.
Deanna: Yeah, no, I'm sure. I'm sure many listeners will agree with you. Now, independent brands, I would say, and and startup companies as well along the cosmetic industry, supply chain, have taken on a portion of the risk involved with innovation in our industry and.
It's then not uncommon for regional and multinational legacy companies to acquire the most successful of these. Right? Sometimes, uh, they do this to access innovation as I'm suggesting, and sometimes for reasons of market expansion, which might include access to new consumers or, or customers depending on the sort of business.
I [00:18:00] know, uh, Trinity London borrowed significant debt financing last year, I believe in the eight figure range and analysts. Do suggest, um, that the brand is likely to be acquired. I often hear, um, media brand leaders, suppliers wanting to know, you know, which brand will be the next cosmetics, the next drunk elephant, the next asop, everyone is, you know, who is it who's coming next?
Um, my question for you is, you know, could the product innovation you work rather the the product innovation work that you are doing, make Trinity London a more desirable acquisition target, I guess. I I I'm really curious how significant is product formulation? Is efficacy, maybe even product format when it comes to the value of a brand?
How does your work balance out with that decision?
Jeff: And obviously, I'm gonna have a biased answer 'cause it's my work. So I'm gonna say it's, it's it'ss very important. It's gotta be very, very important. Um, obviously, again, for any brand to be valuable, it needs to have a healthy, uh, business behind it. And to create a healthy business, you need to make products that consumers want to buy.
[00:19:00] And we'll buy again because they perform so well. So again, I kind of anchor myself back into that. If, if that is part of the plan for the future, for the, for the, for the business, then that's great. If not, that's also great because it's not gonna change how I'm gonna approach. It's ultimately about creating, again, the best products, the best, whatever we need to do to create the best output for our consumer base.
Yeah. Is what the target is. And trying to do it in the most effective, efficient, uh, way for them. Is ultimately where, again, if you yank yourself in that, then good things are gonna come. If you just worry about that other side of the, the, the business aspect, um, you might get distracted and make some poor decisions along the way.
So,
Deanna: yeah, no, I, I like that I thank you for being a guest here on the Cosmo Factory Podcast. Jeff,
Jeff: thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate it.
Deanna: You're welcome. [00:20:00]