COSMOFACTORY

Deanna: [00:00:00] This episode is about emollients, biopolymers, and high volume sustainable innovations. It's about the thoughtful and gradual replacement of synthetic cosmetic ingredients around the world. It's also about upcycling, circularity, biodegradable beauty, and more. My guest on this episode of the CosmoFactory podcast is Johannes Crotogino, Sustainable Innovation Platform Lead at BASF Personal Care.
Deanna: Welcome.
Johannes: [00:01:00] Hi. Thank you for having me.
Deanna: No, you're welcome. I'm looking forward to our conversation. Um, I think it's fair to say that environmental compliance has been an integral part of manufacturing for decades. Um, but so called green jobs where executives and team leaders are tasked with improving the environmental sustainability of, um, a whole company, a division, a product or production line, these seem to be newer jobs.
Deanna: I know, uh, you've been with BASF for nearly 15 years and, and the past couple of years in your current role, which I mentioned as I introduced you, um, It has the title of Sustainable Innovation Platform Lead. I'm, I'm curious if you can just talk about these newer titles. Um, did this role exist when you took it on?
Johannes: He actually was, uh, for personal care innovation. That role has been specifically created. Um, actually, it's been created to make sure that there's So seek one platform for the innovation of product groups that have very similar [00:02:00] sustainability requirements. So, um, it makes sense to look at those requirements across the board.
Johannes: So that's, that's where it really had been created from scratch. Yes,
Deanna: Yeah, and your work is focused exclusively on innovations that are relevant to the cosmetics industry, but certainly there are a number of sustainability, um, leaders throughout the company.
Johannes: that's correct. That's great. I mean, anyways, in most big companies, you probably have many, many of those, um, functions looking at that. What I'm actually, my focus is completely on emollients. Biopolymers and emulsifiers for cosmetics. So I look after those of innovation products that you could say the make up the big volumes in cosmetic products in the end.
Deanna: Certainly, certainly. And can you give us a fuller picture of what you're responsible for in this role?
Johannes: I mean, the role is basically to drive the innovation pipeline for those those products. So when you when you look at. Innovation. I mean, in personal care, um, it's a broad range of quite different requirements. So, [00:03:00] uh, I need to analyze the market and understand what what customers, um, need where where the market is going, especially the global developments.
Johannes: So you have to get this comprehensive view of the markets going also to inform our pipeline choices accordingly. Right? And interestingly, you come across very Very similar requirements all the time again, like across those, those different product groups too. So it's, it's always biodegradability. It's always naturality.
Johannes: Uh, it's a question what it's made from the raw material sources. So, uh, that really is part and parcel of that.
Deanna: Excellent, excellent. And you did mention, um, you know, um, maybe you already said it here, but you definitely told me before we started recording today that you're very much focused on developing ingredients that would serve as alternatives to silicones, polymers, select esters, so maybe ingredients like polyethylene glycol.
Deanna: Can you say more about why you're targeting this particular group of ingredients?[00:04:00]
Johannes: Yeah. I mean, there's a, there's a, I mean, pressing need for development of, of sustainability. Uh, sustainability and all of all sorts of materials, but these ones and I think think silicones and I think synthetic polymers, what they have in common is that most of them are. are not biodegradable. I mean, silicones definitely are not at all biodegradable.
Johannes: And, um, and both silicones and synthetic polymers are mostly also not bio based. And that's what, um, what's more is that if you look at an average cosmetic product, so it's, it's emollients like mineral oils, silicones, uh, polymers that you would find quite a lot of on the Inkey List. So Any, any difference you can make of those product groups will have a significant, um, effect simply by the relatively large volume that you're looking at, right?
Johannes: So the aim is to find solutions that are biodegradable and bio based and at the same time give the cosmetic performance and products that the customers are used to. So there are many, many product [00:05:00] groups they have to look at, but I think What I'm doing is primarily to target these ones because there's really a lot to gain, you could say, yeah,
Deanna: Yeah, no, I think that's an excellent point that the, maybe the percentage of these sorts of ingredients at any given formulation is comparatively high, and we could extrapolate then from that, that the use of these ingredients throughout the industry and the overall volume is relatively high compared to some, you know, perhaps actives that are used in very small percentages.
Deanna: So if you get this right, the environmental impact will be much more impressive and. Um, practical. We, we, we need the sustainability changes. Does that sound right?
Johannes: no, I would fully agree. That's that's absolutely true. And the more you can, let's say the more leverage is is in targeting those ingredients, the more difference you can really make it. That's that's totally, totally true. Yeah,
Deanna: Yeah. So, I mean, it very much sounds like your work, um, is about, you know, the, the term we think of as de fossilization, [00:06:00] right? And then maybe, I guess, in terms of silicone, um, eliminating the carbon footprint that comes with mining and, and processing. Um, do you, do you look at those sorts of details, um, I guess, in terms of carbon footprint numbers and, and that sort of, um, the, I guess, carbon footprint of the inputs as well.
Deanna: Go ahead.
Johannes: no, absolutely. I mean, as a company, we definitely do that, uh, in the and also in the, uh, In the innovation of replacement options. That definitely is a is an important piece. We we have in mind. Uh, if you if you look at specifically silicones and let's say silicones, mineral oils, synthetic polymers, you know, those, those, those big product groups.
Johannes: I think also, 1 very important thing is, is that the biodegradability or the absence of biodegradability. So that seems to be really absolutely top of of people's minds in the industry, understandably. They're they're so, uh, some of them at least are so far away. [00:07:00] Some of these product groups. Others are almost 100 percent or vast majority of them is bio based by degradable.
Johannes: These ones are almost all are not biodegradable. That's really something where the I would think the first focus would even be on that.
Deanna: Yeah, no, that makes very good sense. It's clear that you and your colleagues are intent on developing both bio based and biodegradable polymers, esters, silicone alternatives, but, you know, certainly other ingredient makers and brand leaders are working to solve these same sustainability challenges. Um, I know you can't see the future, but if you had to predict a timeline, how long do you think this industry wide ingredient replacement will take?
Johannes: That's a that's a good question. It's a hard to answer. I think, I mean, that that's what really I think most of my work on it. Daily basis is about just just to just to predict that because in I mean, take many product groups already today, right? The personal care industry, I think, is offering a majority products that are largely.
Johannes: As I said, not fully bio [00:08:00] based, fully biodegradable, many emollients, many, many emulsifiers. But then some product groups are, well, they can't be easily replaced. And I would think for most of them, there are replacement options. It's just they don't perform the way in a, in a cosmetic performance sense, the way that people are used to from, you know, those conventional synthetic, synthetic products.
Johannes: So I think that transition will. Will definitely take years, um, to come and it will spread with different speeds across, um, also across geographies. And so, in many, many ways, I think it's, um, it's a dynamic evolution. If you, if you, um, if you want, because it depends a lot on which level, um, that replacement solution is actually available.
Johannes: So no one, what no one wants to settle for is a trade off in performance. And they, um, and of course, you know, that solution has to be economically affordable. So the, yeah, that's, I think that's, that's how you could put the speed of transition [00:09:00] in a lot of ways is, is depending on how fast the industry comes up with Yeah.
Johannes: With more and more performing solutions. But it's definitely a, a process that, um, it's in, in some cases has just really taken up speed and definitely will take, take years.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's interesting. You think about the trade off in performance and I, you know, we hear a lot about cost as, as well. So that that transition is definitely something to be watching. Um, you know, you mentioned that it's a, it's a dynamic evolution. I like that expression and that it's happening maybe at different paces, um, in, in regions around the world.
Deanna: Can you comment on, on sort of how that race is going? I know we're all working to the same end. There shouldn't be a winner here. Um, but, but we'll all win as we get there together. Who's making good progress here?
Johannes: that's a, I mean, I mean, to be honest, it's, it's really obvious in most of those aspects, I would see that Europe is very much, um, very much leading at least the [00:10:00] developments that you see, right? And North, so is North America and Asia is clearly, um, is undergoing notable change in a lot of ways, but it's, I think it's, it's fair to say it's slower.
Johannes: In this respect, um, the changes then in in in Europe and and it's a North America. What although what I have to say what I personally felt surprising and I, I, I learned that in South America, South America too was a very small region. You have a considerable push also towards towards sustainable ingredients.
Johannes: Um, in some cases, even, even, uh, even more than than in in in Western, uh, geography. So And in Europe, you also have, um, I think you have a regulatory push. This is, this is one thing that comes on top that makes Europe that puts pressure on European, um, consumer, um, um, consumer good makers.
Deanna: Mm hmm. No, I'm glad you mentioned that because I do think, you know, the regulatory component, um, is very much driving [00:11:00] innovation. Um, and, you know, if we can reflect back on the question I asked you at the, the start of the interview, right? I think the idea that sustainable innovation, right, is, or sustainability is driving innovation, um, is, is a newer challenge.
Deanna: Um, And so I guess I want to ask also about that transition from maybe a conventional innovation model to now, you know, a sustainability driven innovation model. What, what sort of adjustments, you know, would someone like yourself or your team have had to make to start thinking about innovation with this new framework?
Johannes: That's a good question. I mean, it's how, what do you put, what do you put first in your innovation briefings? So to, so to speak, what, what comes, because you have a lot of things you have to look at at the same time and you can't do everything. That's the, that's, uh, unfortunately, uh, in, in, uh, in, in driving an RD pipeline.
Johannes: And so I think if you take these things first, like I said, no biodegradability, [00:12:00] biobased content, um, other sustainability criteria that already puts, let's say a priority. Of many things that you, that you have to do, then you still, then it still has to work and shouldn't be less effective. Uh, your, your new product shouldn't be less effective than the conventional product that's been around for a lot of, uh, a lot of the time.
Johannes: So I think this is really, um, this is really what, what has changed. So, so to speak, cause, cause I mean, to be clear, I would say that. Bio, I mean, call them by ingredients, you know, the, the, the biodegradable and bio based alternatives, I would think they do not necessarily have to be better in terms of performance, like when compared to their synthetic counterparts, I mean, making them more natural biodegradable is a very, very, uh, big challenge to be, to be honest, um, in itself.
Johannes: No. So that's, I think that's what the, [00:13:00] yeah, that's what the, what I would describe the big, the big change. Yeah. Thanks. Uh, transforms everyone's mindset. That's fair to say.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely. And from your perspective, would you say that your customer partners are ready to swap out conventional synthetics? Are they, are they ready when you, when you get these ingredients situated?
Johannes: Yeah. I mean, on the one, yeah, on the one hand, I think most customers, consumers too, they're looking for more sustainable ingredients and they really mean it. And, um, it depends on how convincing the, the buy alternative is obviously, but personal care companies, Uh, first and foremost, the bigger companies, they've definitely set themselves very ambitious targets.
Johannes: Um, for I mean, for instance, when, when do they want to be out of non biodegradable, right? And they have very ambitious targets. Then at the same time, the choice is largely. Depending if you, if you like on what level of performance the, the alternative is. So, so yes, [00:14:00] in, in customers already and customers are also driving that, that, um, that evolution very, very strongly.
Johannes: Um, but it's, yeah, I said, it's, it's probably a process of a couple of years.
Deanna: Oh, no, absolutely. It's it's promising, but it's definitely a big challenge. I hear that. Um, you know, we've talked a lot about the idea that that the ingredients you're working to develop will be bio based. So I'd like to think about the concepts of upcycling as well as bio waste. I'm wondering, um, are those the methods you're using to source biomaterials that that you're developing new ingredients with?
Deanna: And can you say, you know, sort of where you're finding them?
Johannes: Yeah. I mean, definitely it's part of, uh, you know, part of the focus, but the, I mean, if you, if you start with, with, um, How's the personal care ingredient made? Um, most of those ingredients, they're made from, from available feed stocks. I mean, such as, I mean, you have, let's say, biopolymers, you're [00:15:00] using a lot of the time you're using plant based.
Johannes: Polysaccharides, things that are just out there in nature and you, or you can take from a, from a side stream. Uh, or, or I don't know, emollients and the multipliers typically plant oils, plant fats. That's, that's typically what they, what they would come from. But the, the, the trick is actually to have a, I would say a deep understanding of what you can do with those raw materials to, to develop solutions that allow for a high degree of performance.
Johannes: So it can be those, I would call them plain plant based polysaccharides, uh, plain plant based oils. And you can still do something very amazing, uh, with them. But then, I mean, yeah, because you were, you were alluding to, to, to upcycling upcycling materials. I mean, we're looking around and, um, one, one thing is.
Johannes: definitely biotechnological and fermentative roots, although you typically would, most cases you would need some precursor for those also. [00:16:00] Um, and a special interest is, of course, upcycled ingredients. Um, as, as such, clearly, yeah,
Deanna: Yeah, no, and we hear quite a lot about upcycling from the food industry in particular, but you said you're looking around, are there other industries where you're searching for these raw materials?
Johannes: all, I
Deanna: streams, I guess?
Johannes: Yeah, yeah, I think it's yeah, it's fair to say every I mean, in principle, everything or it has to be plant based and that already, uh, narrows down your, your choice probably. So there's, um, there's ideas on I mean, food industry is definitely a big Very adjacent industry to ours. Um, another is, I mean, wood industry.
Johannes: You could think of that. Um, so everything to make it, um, to put it that way. I think everything where you have a plant based, um, a majority plant based stream makes a lot of sense to look at.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah.
Johannes: [00:17:00] it.
Deanna: Yeah. No, I don't, I don't think, um, you don't have to know the answer to this, but it makes me think about how, you know, the textiles industry or the fashion industry is also, um, something I, I see in the news, um, you know, really endeavoring to, to make a difference in terms of their sustainability outcomes.
Deanna: Um, and certainly there are some, you know, plant based fibers there. I wonder, I wonder if beauty and fashion will team up on this.
Johannes: I, you know, I, it, that's, it's interesting you bring it because it's, they have a lot in common. Sure. It's, um, and also by the sourcing, by the, by the, um, if, if you look around in the industry, you look at, um, at events or, or, or exhibitions, you see those similar things very often popping up. So yeah, I think it's a good, it's a good analogy.
Deanna: Yeah. And, and, you know, when we think about these different waste stream materials, How would they maybe affect the consistency or purity of the resulting ingredients? I know, um, you know, especially with the, the scale of the ingredients that you're, you're looking to offer, that would be [00:18:00] a major consideration.
Johannes: The, you mean the, the, um, the quality and the imperative of, okay, wait, I, I think this, yes, I mean, simple answers. There's, there's nothing to compromise on when it comes to that when it comes to the quality and consistency. It's, it's different requirements that you need, of course, depending on, on, on what kind of.
Johannes: Process you're you're you're you're doing. But this is the first thing we start with to make absolutely sure quality requirements and that what people are used to from from, let's say, synthetic materials.
Deanna: Right. So, so I guess I, I guess I'm imagining then that it matters less on sort of the, uh, you know, the quality or purity of the raw material and, and maybe more about the processing that you put in place to develop the, the end ingredient.
Johannes: It's hard to say. I think, well, it's hard to say. I think it's both. Definitely. You have to be very sure about the about the process about, of course, the raw [00:19:00] materials, too. And they're natural materials. So that that, of course, is a different thing than when you when you work with fossil. Um, but yeah, it's definitely both.
Deanna: Yeah. Um, you know, the cost of, uh, sustainable innovations is always a factor, um, to be sure, especially, um, you know, when new ingredients are introduced into the marketplace and, um, companies are looking sort of for their, their first partners to take on a new technology. I'm wondering how working with upcycled materials would affect the financial cost of a bio ingredient.
Deanna: Um, and then of course, you know, yeah, the cost
Johannes: hmm. Mm hmm.
Deanna: customer partner would, would incur.
Johannes: Yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a good question. I mean, in upcycling, I would say in, in, let me say in general, with, with biomaterials, um, look, look with, uh, let's say biopolymers. It looks like for a couple of fields, there may be a different use level. That's just, you know, Part and parcel of the chemistry.
Johannes: I mean, there's that's just just what it is, [00:20:00] right? So you want to meet a specific performance or formulation requirement. And at some points, you might have to at least that's the point we are right now. You might in the industry, you might have to use a little more or, you know, a little less even sometimes, but that might that might differ.
Johannes: So the ultimate goal is, of course, to offer solutions that they have to make sense. Economically, there's there's no other way. Otherwise, we we wouldn't be successful. But can can the upcycle material help in getting the cost down? That's what I, you know, what we were, um, thinking too. It's too early to say maybe, um, because there's, I think, especially with upcycle, also with with the bio ingredients, I would think the The main motivations that are center stage is like adding real value to a plant based, to a bio waste.
Johannes: And, and how can you claim that? How can you, uh, add so much value to something that, you know, to make it [00:21:00] a high value cosmetic ingredient? I think this is the, this is the prime motivation. Uh, To, to go up cycle, to go bio.
Deanna: Yeah, yeah. No, that makes very good sense. Um, you know, we've also talked quite a bit about the idea of biodegradability, um, and I think you've, you've done a pretty good job of explaining why biodegradable ingredients are the goal. But I'd love to hear a little bit more about that because, you know, I, I hear, you know, Um, maybe we can call them industry pundits, um, say that as long as an ingredient doesn't persist in the environment, if it's degradable by any means that that's sufficient.
Deanna: So there are definitely, um, differing viewpoints here. Say more about the importance of biodegradability as it pertains to ingredients.
Johannes: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this, this, um, I've, I've heard that the debate too, it's an ongoing debate on the, maybe in the methodology, right? Let's, is it, is it whether let's say it's only readily biodegradable or inherently [00:22:00] biodegradable that's sufficient. I mean, the synthetic product groups that we, we talked about, they, they will most Mostly not meet either of those two.
Johannes: Biodegradability methods, right? Let's take an example. Your typical mineral oil, silicon oil, your, your synthetic polymer, most, most of them at least, they're not going to be biodegradable, like regardless of which of these methods you're, you're using. So you would have to use probably other methods. Um, and the, the sustainable replacement options that are being developed, they will, at least what we see right now in the industry, a lot of them will fall well into that area of biodegradability.
Johannes: So, so method wise, I think we, we already have a, have a good fix on, on how we can place those. But you were asking about why, why is biodegradability so important? And I mean, on the, on the one hand, it's the industry. Definitely in the companies and influencers in the community as a whole. We're all pushing that, that direction.
Johannes: Um, I mean, as a [00:23:00] consumer, the idea that what you put in your skin, of course, um, you know, wouldn't be remaining in the environment after it's been washed off. Okay. That's the one thing I think on the other hand, you have a regulatory situation. And in, in, in Europe, for instance, it's, it's really a big deal that for the first time a regulator has, has effectively set a ban on, let's say on cyclomethic cones.
Johannes: Right? Your your cyclic silicone. I mean, there will be In a couple of years from now, like two years or something, there won't be cyclomethacones in the European personal care market anymore, and that's a big deal for the industry, of course. And the reason for that, and one of the main reasons for that, is that cyclomethacones are considered, uh, very persistent.
Johannes: Lawmakers have, have, uh, seen that enacted accordingly. So you really have, the other is probably microplastics, a bit more complex. It's a specific development of focusing on the, on the particulate matter polymers. Um, that's also something that really it's, [00:24:00] it's something synthetic polymers can be affected by.
Johannes: I mean, most polymers in the use and cosmetics are rather soluble and swellable and they're not plastic in the actual sense. Um, but you can see really that regulators are Are also closing in and that's a it's making a real difference for suppliers as for, um, as for consumer good makers.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. And, and we've talked a lot about sort of what I would describe as the, you know, the, the giant challenge that you and your team are facing. I'm curious if you have any ingredient innovation successes or progress that you can share with us.
Johannes: Yeah, sure. I mean, if you look at if you look at the biopolymers we're doing, we have the, this, um, completely biodegradable. They really work on. They're based, let's say, on, um, on those plant based polysaccharides. So that really is a, is a, is a group of, um, of products that [00:25:00] really you can use today and be absolutely sure about, um, about, uh, biodegradability.
Johannes: Or look into, uh, emollients, same, same thing, kind of, right? Uh, we, we don't have, uh, I think we don't in the emollients, we, we, don't have that many, uh, that many non degradables, but most of them are really made from, from plant based oils, plant based fats, and, and they degrade too. So, so it's, it's quite a think of the portfolio that, that, that we have, it's, it's quite, um, Majority really is biodegradable and, and, um, and biobased now
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. But the work is ongoing. It sounds like.
Johannes: it is, it is, we still definitely in, in those, those fields that we talked about earlier, there's still some, some way to go because you still have. Let me say, you still have synthetic materials on the market that do a [00:26:00] great job. I mean, silicone, silicones come in every shape and form. They do a fantastic job.
Johannes: They're excellent in sensory and, and in many ways. How do you find an alternative that works? Maybe not exactly the same way because by pure chemistry, they, they, they might not ever work exactly with it with a carbon chemistry, but how do you, how do you come very, very close? And I think for, for cyclic silicones, for instance, the, the, the portfolio of, I mean, of, of biomaterials that we, bio based materials that we have comes very close.
Johannes: You can really get very close in the sensory. Others are more, more challenging, but gradually you can get the performance very, very close on it. And one, one thing that really makes a difference is not just the individual ingredient, the individual ammonia, the individual biopolymer, it's really the application technology.
Johannes: So you have to have this understanding [00:27:00] of what to combine with what, how does it work in that application field? And, um, by combining all that, we can get Uh, amazingly close in some cases to, to the conventional, uh, I should say, the candidates have.
Deanna: Yeah, no, I love that. We often think about sustainability as a collaborative progress process. Rather, we know it, it takes everyone. And you're reminding us that the formulators will very much be involved as well. Um, Johannes, I have to say, I have really appreciated your perspective and I thank you so much for speaking with me here on the CosmoFactory podcast.
Johannes: It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
[00:28:00]