COSMOFACTORY

Deanna: [00:00:00] This episode is about genomic research and molecular testing. It's about protein expression, gene expression, and what this data can tell us about ingredients as well as finished products. It's about in vitro ex vivo and clinical findings, and it's about the strategic priorities and market trends that the business of testing reflects back to us.
Today's Cosmo Factory Podcast guest is Jocelyn Kersley, senior Technical Sales manager at Gene Markers. Jocelyn, [00:01:00] welcome to Cosmo Factory.
Jocelyn: Thank for having me. I'm excited to be here today.
Deanna: Great. Yeah. I'm looking forward to this conversation. So over the past 50 years, or, or maybe even a little longer, we've seen scientific discoveries and technological progress overlap to make gene expression research possible and possible at an impressive scale. I'm thinking of. Breakthrough platform technologies like high throughput, DNA sequencing, RNA, sequencing microarray technology.
This list goes on and on. Uh, but as for the cosmetic and personal care industry, in December, 2003, L'Oreal published an article in the peer reviewed Journal of Investigative Dermatology that, uh, 2003 article is called Modulation of Gene Expression Induced in Human Epidermis by Environmental Stress in Vivo.
Maybe not the most glamorous title, but important research. Absolutely. Um, then in 2006 we saw CDO conducting research on 30,000 genes in both sun protected and sun [00:02:00] exposed skin. In 2008, gene markers, the company where you work. Jocelyn was founded by Anna Lagerfeld Then in 2010 p and g filed for that Beauty Maker's first patent using genetic biomarker based methods to understand skincare ingredient and product efficacy.
I share all these moments in time to point out that while gene expression science is going to be very familiar to some of our listeners and. The technology can today.
rightly be called commonplace in cosmetics and personal care in the biopharma industry in medicine, food, science, agriculture. But it's still a relatively new technology.
And I also want to note that when gene markers launched, the company was very much a pioneer in this field, and I would argue too, that the beauty industry itself is a pioneer in biomarker research. Of course, we do want to hear from an expert, so Jocelyn. Uh, get us started by helping explain at the most basic level, what is gene expression.
Jocelyn: I [00:03:00] think that's an excellent place to start. Um, I think, you know, there's folks in the industry that have a lot of experience with this stuff, and there's also brands that are new to it and realizing that it's going to be beneficial to have this, you know, in their, in their process. So it's important to understand what it is, and essentially it refers to which pieces of DNA are being turned on or off in a certain cell type under certain conditions.
Um, so you know, back to basic biology, all of ourselves ha all of our cells have the same DNA. And what makes them behave differently is the combination of the genes that are turned on or off within that DNA and when those, um, transcription of being turned on or off is taking place. So if you take it back to biology again, the, the DNA is technically the code that is transcribed into a messenger called RNA, and then that RNA is translated into a protein, which is the molecules that are doing the work in the cell.
And like you mentioned, there's a lot of technologies, um, meant to [00:04:00] measure that RNA and the proteins in a very high throughput and efficient manner, in inefficient manner, um, which is what we're doing in the cosmetic industry today.
Deanna: So, just so I understand clearly when we have gene expression, or in some cases as you, as you've mentioned, protein expression, we call these biomarkers because the expression is a way to measure a biological process. Does that sound right?
Jocelyn: Correct. Yes. That's, uh, ultimately the goal of performing these genome or protein expression, uh, tests is to find biomarkers that prove that your ingredient or your formulation are effective for what you think they're being effective for.
Deanna: Yeah, and so this type of testing is novel in so far as you can analyze how that ingredient or finished product formulation works at the molecular level. I think more classical testing methods have been functional, right? They document what happens or maybe I. Something that doesn't happen to the hair or to the skin is, is that [00:05:00] also true?
Can you say a little bit about, um, about that sort of molecular level analysis?
Jocelyn: Yeah, I think the molecular level analysis, um, essentially what we're seeing is we're seeing raw data points. That are produced from exposing a cell or a tissue to a treatment. And then, you know, we use advanced technologies to process, uh, those data points, and then we use calculations to calculate the fold change or the percent change in values.
After those tissues or cells are exposed through treatment, um, and after analyzing that data, we're able to tell you, uh, for each of those specific genes or proteins, how much has it been increased or decreased relative to a control sample or an industry standard that somebody is trying to emulate in their, um, formulation or ingredient.
Deanna: Okay. Okay. So like if we see this in terms of a biological process, it means something else in terms of a mechanism of action or in terms of efficacy. And I'm, I'm guessing it's not always sort of [00:06:00] straightforward. Um, more gene expression doesn't mean more efficacy.
Jocelyn: I think that's a good way to look at it. Right. Um, I think it's important to look at what is changing by how much and why it matters, um, which is why it's important to understand each of the gene functions and the cascades, because sometimes, you know. An increase of expression isn't necessarily a good thing, right?
If you're seeing increases in biomarkers for, um, things such as inflammation, it can be interpreted as, Hey, maybe this is, you know, irritating the skin, or sometimes it can be positive In the case of retinal, right, we're seeing increased inflammation, which is recruiting some of those helpful molecules in the skin that help with repair.
So. Um, it's important to, to understand the gene expression changes in the context that, um, you think your product is working or historical data that prompted you to want to explore, you know, those pathways a bit further.
Deanna: And it's really useful to hear you, um, use inflammation as an example. Can you [00:07:00] share some other examples of, um, those sorts of outcomes that we might be looking at with this sort of testing?
Jocelyn: Yeah. You know, in respect to inflammation, I think there's a lot of different pathways, um, and biological processes that are involved in the inflammation response. Um, and yeah, we can look at several different biomarkers that are involved in that. And a lot of the times, we'll, you know, perform in-house testing, um, to try to find the baseline level of inflammation that occurs.
Um. In response to different exposures, I think a good example is there's inflammation that happens in response to UV exposure. Um, so we're able to calculate what that is and then, um, test like a compound or an ingredient to see if that's able to reduce the damage or prevent the damage that would be caused that way.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. No, that makes sense. So we know gene expression technology can be used for both preclinical and clinical testing because, uh. We have some listeners working in other areas. I do wanna quickly mention some of the, the testing basic terms here. Uh, [00:08:00] preclinical testing does not involve consumer participants.
It happens either in vitro, so outside of a living being, this is often a Petri dish or a test tube. Or ex vivo. Uh, and this method involves viable tissue or cells that are, in my words, no longer attached to a human or an animal, but they once were. Um, and then clinical testing does involve people who serve as study participants.
Uh, with those notes out of the way, Jocelyn, help us think about the preclinical and clinical applications for gene expression testing.
Jocelyn: I think that's an excellent question. You know, this molecular testing can be useful in early stages, such as those preclinical phases for ensuring that ingredients or blends aren't causing any toxic effects. It's really important to screen the activity of raw materials, both alone, um, and in combinations with one another to find safe and effective doses, uh, different ratios.
Sometimes it can be used to evaluate different delivery systems. [00:09:00] Um, and overall just ensuring that the product or, um, ingredient is behaving the way that you anticipate it's behaving.
Deanna: And those were all preclinical examples. Okay.
Jocelyn: yes. All preclinical examples and then the preclinical testing. Um, everything that you learn from doing those tests can be used to help research teams prioritize which compounds would be worth moving to a clinical study.
You know, if you're seeing promising efficacy in one formulation in an in vitro test or preclinical test, then you can, you know, elucidate that it might perform well in human studies as well. So, um. Yeah. When it comes to clinical testing, the same kinds of molecular analysis can be performed on, uh, samples coming from humans such as tissue biopsies, tape strips, skin swabs, hair follicles, um, all the way down to blood as well for nutritional supplements.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. Okay. Um, and, and in one of our earlier conversations, you explained to me that testing design itself is often a [00:10:00] collaborative process. Can you sort of walk me through how testing companies and their clients actually invent a particular test?
Jocelyn: Yeah, I think, um, you know, ultimately we need to come up with a scientifically sound plan that meets their project goals, uh, their budget and their timeline. So sometimes we already have tests that are developed to evaluate something. We'll often meet with the teams, find out what their objectives and timelines are, um, you know, what kinds of models are they interested in.
So if it's something that already exists and is proven to be able to evaluate test materials, um. In that, in that assay, then we can, you know, perform that pretty straightforward. Um, but we're seeing a lot of industry folks these days interested in developing new models. I think there's a lot of new indications on the market, um, and new, new areas of functionality that folks are pursuing that necessarily don't have great testing models yet.
So, testing, we're seeing a lot of the innovation being driven, um, by folks wanting to explore new biological [00:11:00] processes and ways to measure the impacts on those.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. So it, it sounds like in some cases there are sort of. Of maybe not standardized, but conventional tests. But it, but maybe it's true more often than not that a molecular testing company isn't developing a standard or, or sort of across the board test for maybe a skincare ingredient that provides blue light protection or a.
Um, you know, a universal test for effective anti-pollution hair care. In. Instead, they're co-creating a test that's proprietary to the, the client's, sort of maybe the benefit claims they want to make or the mechanism of action of a particular ingredient they believe they've developed. Do I have this right?
And, and, and help me, help me think further in this direction.
Jocelyn: Yeah, I think it can happen both ways where some. Times two companies will come together, see that there's an unmet market need, um, whether that be two separate testing companies or perhaps a brand who has a lot of different things they want to screen for, and they know they [00:12:00] want to use that model, right?
So sometimes you can work together to bring that to market. Um, and then, you know, sometimes that can be commercialized as a group, but we often see it where maybe there's a large ingredient company or a large brand who has a lot of products and they're interested in screening so many molecules, um, at once, that it's more effective for them to come up with something that is proprietary to them, um, that will help propel them in the market.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. And that's an excellent example. And, and you mentioned sort of that ingredient development stage earlier. Are there, are there. Are sort of common cases when a beauty supplier or manufacturer does this sort of testing in terms of maybe that company's strategic priorities.
Jocelyn: I think there's a lot of hot areas in the market, um, you know, anywhere from GLP one in skin interactions. Um, you know, we're seeing neuro cosmetics be really popular as well, and I think a lot of companies. Want to create products that meet those, um, those new indications and needs of the [00:13:00] market. And companies that are investing in developing, um, testing models that they can use to screen their formulations, um, are ultimately the ones that are going to get ahead in the market.
Deanna: Mm, mm-hmm. And certainly, um, companies all along the supply chain are, are well regarded for their roles as industry innovators. At the same time, these companies, whether they're contract manufacturers, packaging makers, even machinery specialists, they also reflect what the industry at large is doing. And, and surely that's the same.
Uh, the, you know, the same sort of case is true in testing. Um, you mentioned neuro cosmetics, um, as, as sort of a, a request that you're seeing from, from customers. I'm wondering if there are other sorts of beauty industry trends or movements that you have noticed being reflected in your client work. Are there other sort of revolutionary ingredients or product benefits we should be watching for?
Jocelyn: Yeah, I think, you know, there's always product benefits, um, that are no, you know, emerging, but. I think one of the things that comes to mind is [00:14:00] that we often see trend cycle. I think a good example of that is currently blue light. Um, this was something that we saw pretty often, quite a few years ago, and we had developed a reproducible model for testing that and then, you know, it kind of died down for a bit.
Um, but recently in the past month, I've seen at least two or three articles in, uh, cosmetics and toiletries about blue light testing. So I think that's a good example. Um, I think hormones and metabolism are something that have been a hot topic for a long time. Um, I think that kind of goes hand in hand with the, the trend towards, or the circling back on the trend of holistic beauty, holistic health, beauty from within.
Um, seeing a lot more brands that, you know, were originally focused on skin and topical treatments, now looking at ingestibles that are meant to be taken in conjunction with topical treatments. And of course, personalization. Uh, consumers want personalization to, to their own individual areas of concern for every product they use.
Deanna: [00:15:00] Mm-hmm. You mentioned supplements. Can you, can you say anything about the sort of difference or maybe the similarity of the sort of gene expression or protein expression testing when it is a topical product in. Contrast to an ingestible product. Like a, like a supplement or, um, yeah,
Jocelyn: Yeah, yeah. That's a really good.
Deanna: Sometime we say.
Jocelyn: A really good area to think about. I think it's really important when we design those studies, um, because, you know, when you're looking at a, a topical product, there's 3D skin models where you can apply that topical product, you know, it permeates through the skin and you can see the direct effects on cells.
Um, it can be a bit more complicated with nutritional supplements, especially when they're orally ingested because obviously they need to be metabolized, broken down by the body. It's not necessarily the raw material that's having the impact, it's the metabolite it's broken down to. Um, so a lot of the times we see the in vitro testing for nutraceuticals, it's usually a certain cell type, um, treated with some kind of material or metabolite.
[00:16:00] Just as a proof of concept to see, um, is this something that might show promise in, in humans? But yeah, I think the, the nutraceuticals align a bit closer with the pharmaceutical industry actually. Um, which, you know, we, we work in as well. But it's really cool to see the intersection between the two industries and even cosmetics and, uh, the testing processes are trending towards a more pharma like structure as well.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. Um, I, I'm curious, just quickly, is there anything that gene expression testing really can't be used effectively for? Are there certain benefit claims or efficacy, even mechanisms of action that this just doesn't make sense for, for some reason? Can you say anything about that?
Jocelyn: Yeah, that's an important question. I think a lot of folks do come to us and you know, they ask, can we use this gene expression data in marketing, um, or in our claim substantiation. And it's important to note that we're not the experts on the regulatory part of this. Um, there's absolutely instances where this data can [00:17:00] be used to strengthen marketing claims.
You can correlate it with clinical results that you see. Um, you can help to explain the mechanism of action, but ultimately you do need to have some kind of clinical testing performed. And of course, always need to work with, um, a regulatory expert to make sure that this information is communicated properly.
Um, especially within different markets. 'cause of course there's different regulations depending on where you're marketing to.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. No, it just sounds to me like, um, this is most useful really in terms of understanding, right. And, and sort of the, the ingredient or product development, uh, part of the work. Um, and, you know, since we're always thinking in a future forward direction, I, I do wanna ask you before we finish up. How do you think AI models will impact the world of testing?
Does that sort of predictive digital technology mean that we don't need as much in lab testing to.
happen?
Jocelyn: Um, yeah, no, I like that you bring that question up. There was a conference I went to recently where there was a panel discussion and this exact [00:18:00] question came up where it says, can AI replace the kind of physical, you know, in vitro or in vivo testing, um, in the future. And I think the AI tools will be very helpful for figuring out which ingredients to use.
What ratios and blends, you know, will they have promising effects? Good at predicting that, but ultimately that physical testing does still need to take place. Um, it's really important to verify what the computers are telling us, right? If you, you don't just wanna copy and paste what AI says you want to prove, um, you know, you would read it first.
You would, you would prove and make sure that it works. So I think. At a certain point, um, it'll be a tool in the process of designing studies and designing what to test and maybe prioritizing those things. But this kind of testing will still need to take place.
Deanna: Yeah. No, that makes very good sense. Jocelyn, this was all so very interesting. I thank you for sharing your knowledge and your time with us here on Cosmo Factory.
Jocelyn: Thank you. I. [00:19:00]