COSMOFACTORY

Deanna: [00:00:00] This episode is about cosmetic ingredient traceability. It's about sourcing butters, oils, and sugars that keep the rainforest standing. It's about the relevance of third party certifications, and about teaming up with forest communities to produce natural ingredients with applications in skincare, hair care, body care, personal care, and more.
Deanna: my guest on today's episode of the Cosmo Factory podcast is Dirk-Jan Oudshoorn, founder and CEO at Forestwise. Welcome.
Dirk-Jan: Thank you. Thanks for having [00:01:00] us.
Deanna: No, I'm so glad you could, you could be with me today here. Forestwise for folks listening, is a company that's headquartered in the Netherlands, and all of your ingredients, as I understand it, are coming actually from the rainforests of Indonesia and these two countries have, have quite a long history.
Deanna: I'm wondering if you can just Just let us know how that history might figure into your collaborations now with the Indonesian people who harvest and help process the Forestwise ingredients. Sure.
Dirk-Jan: Sure. Yeah. Thanks Deanna, for having us in the, in the podcast. Yes, uh, indeed. There is a, there is a long history between the Netherlands and Indonesia. Uh, it goes back, uh, about 400 years and, um, yeah, the Netherlands have been heavily, um, yeah, present, I think in Indonesia for, for 350 years. there are, there are good sides and there are bad sides, um, and, and, yeah, we don't know, um, I mean, yeah, now a lot of, a lot more things are coming, uh, into light, but, um, yeah, the way we work with, with, uh, Indonesian people, [00:02:00] uh, is, is hopefully very different from that. It's still focused on, indeed, um, collecting materials from Indonesia that, that are sold, uh, all over the world. But, um, in our case, we really focus on Fairtrade, uh, on the Fairtrade side of, of the, of that trading, um, a trading of those materials. So yes, um, I think it's a very, very different relationship and, and, uh, hopefully we can, we can learn from the past and, and make things better for the future.
Deanna: No, thank you so much for that. I have heard you say in the past that Forestwise the approach that you take to sourcing raw materials is both, uh, rainforest friendly and wildlife friendly.
Deanna: Can you tell us what that actually means?
Dirk-Jan: Yes. Um, the, yeah, it is based on the ingredients that we are collecting are harvested from the rainforest without. Destroying the rainforest or without harming the rainforest. Uh, so by saying it's rainforest friendly, we mean that the ingredients are coming from rainforest [00:03:00] areas. Uh, we, we are working with, uh, local communities who live in those rainforests or near those rainforests and who, who know how to collect.
Dirk-Jan: the materials in the best way possible without harming the rainforest. And this way they don't have to cut down the rainforest to make a living, which is basically always the other alternative. For example, if they want to plant palm oil or for gold mining, for example, it's almost always leading to deforestation.
Dirk-Jan: So in this case, The forest itself becomes much more economically valuable while it's standing, um, compared to when it's cut down. So that's why it's also wildlife friendly, because it means the habitat of the wildlife is not disturbed and is actually staying alive.
Deanna: Interesting. Thank you for that. So it's, it's very clear to me and I'm sure to everyone listening already that your company prioritizes what we think of as environmental sustainability. We know that beauty brands, beauty consumers, and really probably the whole world now [00:04:00] considers Matters of ethics and human rights, a part of sustainability as well.
Deanna: You mentioned fair trade at the start of our interview, but I'm wondering how, how your company, you know, You know, ensures that the people that you work with that you're actually creating what I would think of as maybe a genuine opportunity that improves workers quality of life, helps them maintain pride in their communities.
Deanna: Talk more about about your collaboration there.
Dirk-Jan: Sure. Yeah, our company, uh, our products are fair for life certified or most of them. And this is a quite an extensive standards that looks at Uh, living wage or living standards of the people that we work with. So, for example, uh, to make sure that the price that is paid to the collectors of these materials is fair, there is a living wage analysis.
Dirk-Jan: There is a cost price analysis for the farmer itself. So looking at which farmer, which margin the farmer is getting. Uh, it looks at prices paid by, uh, uh, competitors. And, uh, so on, on the, on the markets, like how, how we compare to that. [00:05:00] Uh, and there's also a fair for life, um, premium that is paid by the customers that is, um, uh, yeah, sent back to the farmers through the fair trade funds and farmers themselves come up with proposals how they want to Um, how they want to spend those, those fair trade funds.
Dirk-Jan: So yeah, there, there's quite a lot of, uh, things going on, uh, before you get, you can get, uh, certified, uh, there's quite a strong collaboration with the, the local communities. And there are very often, uh, meetings and, um, yeah, collab, uh, collaborations about how we can improve or how we can, uh, support the farms in the best way possible to improve their livelihoods.
Deanna: Yeah, I guess I didn't realize that, but it makes sense about the, you know, the Is it, is it a certification, how we're calling it?
Dirk-Jan: Yes. Yeah. Fair for life is a certification.
Deanna: I mean, I guess I didn't realize about the, um, the fair trade or fair for life sort of premium that's added for consumers. It would, it makes perfect sense, right?
Deanna: Because that's one of the challenges, um, is making sure that the economics, [00:06:00] um, balance out and certainly you know, consumers who are looking for that sort of ethical return on their investment, um, are willing, are willing to pay that. Um, that's quite interesting So, yeah this question is going to sound a little bit skeptical, so forgive me, but even at industrial scale I'm wondering how much rainforest that a handful of cosmetic ingredients can actually preserve.
Deanna: Tell us, you know, tell us about the scale of what you're able to do.
Dirk-Jan: Uh, yeah, good, good question. Uh, there is, well, a lot of the rainforest in Borneo has, has disappeared. So that's about 50 percent of the rainforest. This is what we are trying to, to keep standing. Of course. Uh, we also work in other parts of Indonesia, but really mainly in Borneo. Um, yeah, so, so yeah, millions of hectares have been, been lost, but there are also still millions of hectares, um, available and it's the third largest island in the world.
Dirk-Jan: So it's still. Quite a big area. Um, so far we we have [00:07:00] collaborations with six, uh, communities where we have, uh, or actually more, more than six, but with six of them, we have, um, agreements on, uh, forest protection. Uh, while we are, so as long as we are purchasing, um, the raw materials from those communities, they will keep the rainforest standing.
Dirk-Jan: So it's, it's a win win actually for both because It means that we have the guarantee of supply and they have a guarantee of, uh, offtake as well for the longterm. And, uh, this motivates people as well to start replanting trees, for example, ellipi trees, because we collect the ellipi nuts and there is no incentive needed other than just buying those ingredients, buying those, uh, those materials, um, in this case, ellipi nuts, uh, for people to start replanting.
Dirk-Jan: So, so that's a big driver for us to why we are doing this. Um, And, um, sorry, I have to get back to the, uh, yeah, how much can we, we, uh, with the six villages, it's 36, 000 hectares. That's, uh, of course that is projected. So that's relatively, [00:08:00] relatively small. But if we look at the total size of the, um, uh, of the, the province where we work West, West Borneo, um, there are, uh, growing in, I think, um, more than 1 million hectares of, of that area.
Dirk-Jan: Um, so there is, yeah. With the growth we are experiencing now with, uh, with the leaping nuts, uh, for example, uh, there, there is potential to really grow to hundreds and thousands of hectares that can be protected this way.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's helpful to hear. Thank you. Um, and of course I'm, I'm very hopeful. Um,
Dirk-Jan: Me too.
Deanna: it's certainly a noble endeavor, Forestwise also sells into the food industry and are there other sectors where your products, um, make sense?
Dirk-Jan: Uh, yes, it, it depends a bit on the industry, but indeed, uh, the oils, uh, butters and sugars that we make, they are all edible. So they can also go into, into the food industry for a lipid butter. It is [00:09:00] a cocoa butter equivalent, uh, meaning that it's of high interest from cocoa chocolate manufacturers. And that's actually where we see that the largest volume growth as well.
Dirk-Jan: So yeah, linking to the question before, like we see, uh, yeah, quite a big growth in volume, meaning also quite a big, uh, growth in, in impact for protecting, uh, rainforest. And, uh, we are also looking at, at rubber actually. Uh, because all the farmers we work with, basically there are rubber farmers and they do collection of these non timber forest products.
Dirk-Jan: They do that, uh, on the side of the, of the rubber industry, mostly. So we are looking, uh, into that industry as well to be able to support the farmers, uh, even more.
Deanna: so interesting. And we've mentioned certifications a little bit, but I know your company actually has several third party certifications. I'm curious what the value of those certifications is to your business, maybe your distribution [00:10:00] partners, even the brands you formulate with your ingredients. What's the relevance here?
Dirk-Jan: Uh, yeah, some of them are, are really a must to get into certain brands. Um, so almost all of our products are organic certified organic for EU and the U S. Uh, and this is, uh, yeah, this has become quite, um, quite a must for, for most of our customers, um, for the fare for life certification, uh, not all customers are waiting for it or, I mean, are asking or requesting this, uh, but because we have it already, then, uh, they're actually quite happy to learn about it and, uh, yeah, they, they see how they're, uh, Purchases is contributing to these Fairtrade fund projects as well.
Dirk-Jan: Um, and then we have a Cosmos, uh, certification, which is a Cosmos approved, uh, we use that for, uh, ingredients that are not organic certified, for example. Uh, so to [00:11:00] have at least, uh, that in place as a, as a certification, um, that, that shows at least the, the natural, um, um, nature of the product. Um, and then we are also, we have Halal certification, Koster certification.
Dirk-Jan: Uh, those are also mainly because of, uh, yeah, that those become requiring requirements more and more from, from, uh, from our customers. Um, and we are a member of the union for ethical bio trades. The UBT and yeah, we, we are, we see that more and more brands are, are connecting to, um, uh, to that community as well.
Dirk-Jan: So, uh, it's a way for us to also show to other, uh, to potential off takers. Like we are in the same, uh, uh, in the same street or in the, uh, we're working in the same way. Um, and that's why we are now also looking at, uh, to become a B Corp and that's, uh, yeah, now in progress. So it's exciting.[00:12:00]
Deanna: No, it is for sure. And thank you for running through that list of certifications. I know, um, it's something that a lot of ingredient companies face, um, is this decision about which certifications to pursue, how relevant they are. Um, so I'm sure hearing that. Um, will be useful for many of our listeners.
Deanna: You mentioned, um, kosher and halal certification. I want to think a little bit deeper about halal in particular. And the global population presently is, is more than 25 percent Muslim. I'm wondering if you can talk more about the particular relevance that has, that certification, um, of halal has had for your business.
Deanna: Um, any feedback you've heard, any requests you've heard, um, Uh, like I said, we're, we're trying to help some other companies for sure with the information we share here.
Dirk-Jan: Yes, for sure. Um, yeah, it's actually, uh, Indonesia has is more than more than 70 percent Muslim. Um, so it is, uh, it's one of the largest, or if not the largest, uh, Muslim nation in the world. Um, and they, um, uh, it's, [00:13:00] it's, it's might actually become also, uh, obligatory to, to have that certification as an Indonesian company.
Dirk-Jan: Uh, yeah, you mentioned our headquarters are in the Netherlands, but we have a daughter company in Indonesia where we do the production. And, um, yeah, we are really trying also to address the Indonesian markets. Uh, we are currently still exporting a 95%, uh, uh, more or less of our products, but we definitely hope that we can grow, uh, the market share in Indonesia, um, as well.
Dirk-Jan: So that's a, that's an important reason for us, but yeah, there are also many other, uh, countries and companies, um, who are asking for Halal certification now.
Deanna: Thank you for sharing that. Um, so we've, we've touched on it a bit in, in some of the replies, um, here so far, but let's speak, um, now more specifically about your ingredient portfolio. It is, uh, relatively small, as you, as you mentioned, butters, oils, sugars, um, for the most part, but, but tell us what you, what you, what you're sharing with the beauty industry.[00:14:00]
Dirk-Jan: Yes, thank you very much. Um, uh, the main ingredients we, uh, we are promoting, uh, producing is a leapy butter. Uh, so as mentioned is it's very similar to cocoa butter. Um, uh, like the fatty acid profile is, is, uh, it's almost identical. Um, but it's, uh, it's also like a good moisturizing butter. It has good structuring properties.
Dirk-Jan: So it's used for example, in, um, uh, in solid formulations. because, because of the, yeah, because of the high melting points, um, for, uh, the oils we have cuckoo nuts oil, which is also known as candle nuts oil. This one is also organic and fair for life certified. So we are the only supplier of those certifications for this product.
Dirk-Jan: And this is a very dry oil that penetrates the skin very quickly, but also has a very good moisturization properties. Uh, then we have virgin coconut oil. This is not produced by ourselves, but by, [00:15:00] uh, a company called Alouan, which is our partner. Uh, they are based in Sumatra, Indonesia. And, uh, they also have high ethical standards, uh, working with, um, nature conservation, um, on, on the islands where, where they're located.
Dirk-Jan: Um, and this is, uh, yeah, in terms of qualities, one of the best quality, um, virgin coconut oil that, that you can find. Uh, then we have Boomer oil. It means red fruit oil. This comes from Papua. So that's the very most eastern part of Indonesia, which is connected to Papua New Guinea. And this is a very special oil that we get a lot of good feedback about.
Dirk-Jan: It's very high in beta carotene and has high antioxidant levels. And it's used as a natural colorant. Um, but also, for example, um, uh, in hair care, um, that's actually what, what it's most famous for to, to promote hair growth. Um, and then, uh, [00:16:00] for the sugars, we have, uh, two, uh, one is coconut sugar. It's also organic certified.
Dirk-Jan: And the other one is arenga, uh, organic arenga sugar. Uh, so both of these are, are palm sugars. Um, they are brown sugars. And, um, they are used for example, in, in lip creams or in lip lip products to enhance the, the taste of the, of the product, uh, or as an exfoliant or for example, for a hair removal.
Deanna: Very good. Thank you. Um, and maybe, maybe you can choose one of those ingredients and, and share it a little bit further, um, as a case study, um, in terms of how the folks you work with are harvesting it, um, starting to help produce it. Um, help us paint a little bit bigger picture of your, of your business there.
Dirk-Jan: Yes, sure. Um, yeah, I think I would still choose a lippy butter because it's our flagship product. Uh, so we have so far supported a hundred farmers, uh, [00:17:00] who, are collecting these, uh, these nuts. Uh, next season, this is likely to grow to around three thousand, uh, three to four thousand farmers. Um, and they, these are trees that are, yeah, sort of in, in their backyard, but they, uh, they, they did not have an economic value anymore.
Dirk-Jan: It, it used to be, uh, quite valuable until 1980s. Uh, but then later when, uh, yeah, as palm oil got, uh, uh, gained more and more popularity, um, the other products, uh, uh, yeah, the ellipi butter was, it was forgotten a bit. Um, so with our intervention, um, we're able to make this product valuable. Again, people start replanting, renting the trees, as I mentioned.
Dirk-Jan: And, um, we do as much as possible. Uh, close to the rainforest. So the, the, they, the, the local communities, they add as much value as possible, um, until the nuts are completely, um, clean, uh, peeled, [00:18:00] sun dried, uh, and then we take them to the factory. And the only last step we do in the factory there is to press the nuts.
Dirk-Jan: Uh, and then we do refining of the, um, of the oil, uh, that we get from the nuts, uh, currently in the Netherlands. So, um, we, yeah, this way we, we, we have the, the communities at as much value as possible. And, uh, we can increase their income by 16%, uh, on annual basis.
Deanna: Excellent. Thank you for that. And, um, you mentioned, uh, the opportunity to work with, with many more farmers in the future. So that's very promising as well. Um, while we're talking about, uh, ingredients from Indonesia, uh, for our listeners, I just want to mention, it's purely coincidental, but a very recent episode, um, of Cosmo Factory, um, episode 28, um, which was maybe just last week or the week before, for our listeners, um, I spoke with the CEO of the Martha Tyler R Group, which is based in Indonesia, so, um, after this episode, they [00:19:00] might want to, uh, go have a listen to that one, um,
Dirk-Jan: Great. We hope so.
Deanna: Yeah.
Deanna: Um, but, but let's you and I now talk about traceability. Um, a fully traceable ingredient supply chain is very desirable, uh, but very difficult to realize. Um, can you tell us how your company documents and demonstrates, um, ingredient origin and then that path through processing and sale that you, you walked us through?
Dirk-Jan: Yes, absolutely. Um, yeah, when we first started our company is only six years old, but when we first started, actually everything was documented. Uh, on paper, we were already tracing everything, uh, because we have contact with each farmer individually. So we know exactly how many nuts we bought from each farmer, uh, or how many other raw materials we bought from them.
Dirk-Jan: And then, uh, throughout the supply chain, so from the nuts arriving at our factory, uh, how, how much butter is, uh, produced. And in which batches, uh, is that going? That's all documented. Uh, so that's in [00:20:00] the end, if the customer is buying a product from a certain batch, we can tell them exactly which farmers, um, those, uh, the raw materials for, for that batch came from.
Dirk-Jan: Um, so that was all very manual. Now, as we are growing, uh, we have introduced, uh, an app. Uh, app was already existing, but this is customized to, uh, to our supply chain. And, uh, all the farmers are now, uh, registered on that app. So they have their own login, but we can also, yeah, see all of them in our, uh, side of the, um, of the platform.
Dirk-Jan: And, um, it starts from mapping the land where the, the materials are collected. Uh, then we can see that like the purchase that's done, uh, from the farmer going into, uh, a truck that is bringing it to the factory and then the production. So all of the steps are recorded. Um, and that's all, it's all using this app.
Dirk-Jan: So later, Uh, when the customer is getting their ingredients or [00:21:00] or their end product, even they could scan with the QR codes, um, or they could scan the product and they could see also which farmer collected the nuts for the ingredients that are in debt in that product.
Deanna: Yeah, well, no, thank you for that. Can you mention anything about sort of, um, the expense or ROI of that traceability initiative?
Dirk-Jan: Well, yeah, we, we have to see, um, yeah, how many customers are really coming on board because of that traceability that we can offer. Um, so yeah, the investment of, of, uh, an app like this itself is about 12, 000. And then there's an annual cost, uh, to that as well.
Deanna: Sure,
Dirk-Jan: But, um, I think definitely, um, there was at least one big client that, that, uh, came on boards, um, yeah, basically 2024.
Dirk-Jan: So this year, um, and they had, they are now one of our biggest customers and they, uh, their main reason [00:22:00] to, um, to, to, yeah, choose us as their new supplier. Um, what's the traceability that we can offer because our competitor could not. Uh, so yeah, I think, um, that that return on investment, um, should be returned, uh, already.
Deanna: good, good. I'm glad it seems to be shaping up for you there. Um, uh, before we started, um, our interview, you mentioned I could call you DJ, that many of your, uh, business colleagues, um, use that name, so I'm assuming I can toss that in here. I just have a couple more questions for you. Um, DJ, I'd like, um, to ask you a similar question, I guess.
Deanna: Um, Similar to the traceability question, but more about your overall business. I'm wondering when you make decisions, how are you balancing the vision to, excuse me, to really do the right thing, um, within the commercial realities that you see in the ingredient marketplace?
Dirk-Jan: Yeah, I think that there has to be a commercial opportunity, uh, for this to be successful. So if, if there [00:23:00] is no commercial possibility, then we would leave that, that product on the table, uh, until, uh, the opportunity comes. So we look at, um, of course there, there are really, uh, thousands of ingredients that can potentially be harvested from the rainforest.
Dirk-Jan: Uh that have some kind of benefits if it's for the cosmetic industry or food industry or or any other industry Um, and so far, um, I believe only 30 have been commercialized from the data from the indonesian government So there are still uh, really hundreds or or thousands of products that that's uh, yeah that could add value And, uh, could help to keep that, that rainforest standing.
Dirk-Jan: Um, but there's, yeah, so far there's about 30 products that have been commercialized. We have six in our portfolio. Um, and, um, yeah, we, we look at like, okay, we, we are operating in the cosmetics industry. So which products, uh, are for, are the most interesting for our, uh, personal care [00:24:00] customers, um, that's the way we, we look at it and, uh, we are always looking for new ingredients.
Dirk-Jan: Um, but, uh, yeah, when we see an opportunity, we, we first check it with, with our clients, with our distributors, if they see a potential, uh, markers for that before. Um, yeah, we start taking a debt a few steps further.
Deanna: Yeah, yeah, no, that's helpful, I know and, Um, you know, we hear that sort of, um, you know, that need for market potential, um, in so many places along the supply chain, um, you know, whether a distributor will, will bring on a new ingredient or, or what have you. Um, and I, I often hear from suppliers how important it is for brand leaders, um, or formulators, even, even end consumers really to speak up and, um, You know, if they have an interest or a passion in particular ingredients or particular benefits, um, that, that they sort of let the world know so that, um, I think, um, I can help a company like yours find, um, you know, what makes sense commercially that, that we might not realize.
Deanna: Um, [00:25:00] so that's, that's helpful to hear. Um, I'm wondering if there are any lessons that you've learned, uh, while building the Forestwise company that maybe a more conventional, um, or. Or we might call them a legacy ingredient company might be able to implement. Maybe it's in terms of sustainability or traceability or even something else.
Deanna: What, what do you know that we don't know?
Dirk-Jan: Yeah. Um, I think we learned a lot of lessons. Um, and, um, we're happy to, to share that as well, but I think, yeah, companies can always contact us if they have questions and if they think that we can support. Um, I think one thing is just being on the ground and, um, really trying to connect to the communities, what, what are their needs and are they really waiting for this new supply chain to be set up in the, in their village?
Dirk-Jan: Like, are they, are they waiting for, for this new project or are they actually, they're not interested in those threes anymore, for example, just, uh, in our case that that was not, not the case. Uh, but it was actually [00:26:00] the, the communities that, that came to us. Uh, we were there actually at that time I was working in an NGO that was already 11 years ago.
Dirk-Jan: And, um, in this case we were, we were working on, uh, on another, uh, non timber forest products. Um, but then while working on that, they mentioned, Hey, can you not, uh, also look at this, this Illipinat as it used to be so valuable for them. Uh, so yeah, that's actually how it started. And, um, yeah, now being six years, uh, yeah, I've been living in Indonesia now for almost 12 years and, uh, six years, uh, running this business.
Dirk-Jan: Um, yeah, we, we see it over and over again. There, there are, there's so much knowledge with the, the, the, the indigenous communities who live there. Um, How to handle these materials as well. So, the first ones to ask, uh, are, are them. If we want to improve anything in the production process, or if we have any ideas how, uh, how we think the quality can [00:27:00] be improved, we'll check with them first if they have any ideas on, uh, on that as well.
Dirk-Jan: So, think, uh, being on the ground, uh, listening to, uh, to the farmers, and, and also, of course, how we can support them in the best way. Not only by buying the raw materials from them, but maybe they have other, um, yeah, other ideas on how they can be supported so that they can keep the forest standing because that's in the end, uh, what we are doing it for.
Dirk-Jan: But it's also for our business, the long term goal, because otherwise there are no materials to collect anymore.
Deanna: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I appreciate your, your, you know, you're speaking so honestly about the importance of being on the ground. Maybe you can say a little bit more, um, about that. Can you help us think about how big the Forestwise team is? And, um, maybe you're not. Uh, sort of doing some of the conventional CEO roles.
Deanna: I mean, tell us how, how involved you are with sort of the day to day and what it looks like.
Dirk-Jan: Um, [00:28:00] I've been very much involved, uh, in the day to day, um, operations of the company, uh, there at the, at the factory and, and with the communities. Um, yeah, actually already since 12 years ago. So we were already had a very good relationship. Um, before we set up force wise, uh, the team has now grown to 50 people.
Dirk-Jan: Um, and, uh, 12 of them are our field staff. So actually they are the ones who are always on the ground and always, uh, going around, uh, to all the villages to keep them, um, Yeah, to to to know what's happening to to see where support is needed and how things are going with the harvest. Um, and that that was actually for the for the last harvest next harvest.
Dirk-Jan: Um, we're looking, we're hoping to be about five times. Uh, the size of, of the last, uh, harvest. So, um, yeah, that means we also have to grow, uh, definitely have to grow our, our, uh, field teams. Uh, so yeah, probably we'll have 50 people on the grounds, uh, next [00:29:00] year who are actually constantly in the villages. So they, they use, they, they're often during the season.
Dirk-Jan: They are there from Monday to Friday and they only come back to the office. Um, Like on, on Fridays and then on Monday after the briefing day, they go back again, uh, to those villages. And they also often, they come from those villages. Uh, so they, they know they speak the language, the local, um, the local dialect and, um, yeah, they, they know how to, how to communicate, how to, um, uh, engage with these people.
Deanna: Yeah. No, that's fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. It's, um, you know, it's not unusual, uh, to hear that people make the difference in the beauty industry. Um, and I, I think this is a very excellent example of that. Thank you for sharing. Um, and I have to say, DJ, thank you, um, for sharing, you know, your, your larger perspective here today on the Cosmo Factory podcast.
Deanna: I've enjoyed having you as a guest.
Dirk-Jan: Me too. Thank you very much for having us.
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