COSMOFACTORY

Deanna: [00:00:00] This episode is about hybrid packaging design. It's about visual and textural trends. About engineering, decoration, and innovation, and it's about how packaging can not only contain and dispense product, but wonderfully communicate the spirit of a brand and the sensibility of a formulation. For today's episode of the Cosmo Factory Podcast, I am speaking with Andrea Okino, design Director EMEA of [00:01:00] Berlin.
Packaging's Studio one 11. Andrea, welcome to Cosmo Factory.
Andrea: Well, thank you very much for inviting me. I'm very happy to share, uh, our competence with, uh, uh, such a big, uh, audience.
Deanna: Wonderful. No, you're, you're welcome. And, and we all appreciate your being here. Now, when I look at designs from Berlin Packaging, it seems to me that your job involves artfully interpreting a product, maybe. Maybe I should even say artfully interpreting the innovation, the efficacy, the emotion of a product into a practical, functional container.
But, uh, I don't actually work in packaging, so I, I do wanna ask you to tell us how does your team think about design work that is both creative and practical?
Andrea: Hmm. It's a very interesting question. So for us. Uh, uh, it's, uh, has always been important to think, uh, uh, uh, about design as a [00:02:00] key component of, uh, let's say the world meaning of a product and the world, such as, of a product. So it's not a standalone part. It's not, uh, like only a key factor, but is, uh, let's say one things that has to be.
Balanced to, uh, all the other, uh, let's say qualities and, uh, key points of, uh, of a product itself. So to think about design, it's, uh, and, and to be practical and pragmatic, it's, uh, to have, uh, this kind of right balance to find this kind of right balance between creative. Vision, long-term strategy, long-term vision, uh, about innovation, uh, about knowing the customer, the consumer, how the market evolves and even.
The supply chain, the manufacturing constraint, how the manufacturing process evolve. So being in the middle, [00:03:00] uh, uh, like, uh, like, like us between, uh, a final product and something that's, is a, is a concept. Uh, force a little bit us on being really practical creatives, let's say. This is our perfect definition.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. No, that, that's very helpful. I appreciate that. I wanna ask you about a couple of product and packaging design trends. Um, and I think that will let us think further about how sort of visual and tactical details silently say something meaningful to the end consumer. Um, you know, here on Cosmo Factory have had several great conversations and there will be more, uh, with ingredient innovators working with various bio technologies in the world of cosmetic ingredient development science.
Some of what we see in biotech could very easily be called advanced technology. It involves scientific research and it feels very future forward. Can you talk about how you turn this sort of beauty science into a packaging concept?
Andrea: Yeah, sure. [00:04:00] So it's, uh, this is for sure a, a trend that, uh, it's, um, uh, evolving and transforming for sure. Uh, a lot of, uh, things, uh, both in term of functionality and also in term of, uh, finishes. So when we talk about functionality, for example, we see that, uh, products are becoming, are being really specific and.
And, uh, there is a lot of, let's say, look and feel requested from our customer to recall a sort of surgery environment. So a sign sort of, even from a palette point of view, a color palette point of view, the use of silver, uh, that. Can be super shiny, so metalized, uh, or using galvanic on a, b, s or aluminum, uh, or the use of, uh, cold, uh, material like Zac, for example, for specific applicator, for caps, for tubes.
So there is, uh, [00:05:00] this kind of, uh, uh, look and feel coming from, uh, some something that has to be, let's say. Cold, heavy, uh, because, uh, in a sort of, uh, way communicate all the technical and biotechnology that is inside, uh, the formulation and, uh, even maybe the, the, the, the value of the brand that wants to claim really high performance, uh, formulation and ingredient.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. That makes sense. Can you say any more about the design cues, sort of the, the vocabulary you're using? Um, you, you've pointed out that metal is very evocative of sort of a, a surgery mentality. Uh, but are there, are there other, you know, maybe even more nuanced details that you use to sort of let the consumer know that this is leading edge science, this is efficacy, luxury, quality, whatever the brand wants to say.
Andrea: See for sure, uh, the use of, uh, aluminum surfaces. Uh, uh, for example, in brush effect. Uh, it's something [00:06:00] very nice that totally change, uh, when it's used, uh, let's say neutral with, uh, silver and maybe when it's used from in maybe gold or different color. Appears completely different. And the perception of the co, of the, of the consumer is totally different.
So when you, uh, look at something that is neutral, something that can be brushed, that can be like a plastic mat, uh, metalized or metal. So like where that, uh, is shining is shiny, but not that much. It's more like a hidden shiny, uh, surface. Uh, one is silver. Always drive the mind to think about, uh, efficacy and technology inside the product when then start to be colored.
It changed. Totally. It can be like for a traditional product, if we, for example, think about gold, Matt Gold, rose gold and Matt Rose gold, it goes into a direction or when you think about, uh, color, like pastel color, but always ish. Is sort [00:07:00] of shiny in it, given by the metals then becomes something like a quite luxury or something more, uh, let's say sophisticated.
So a color really can change a lot. The perception of the material, let's say
even of the finish of the material.
Deanna: Yeah, no, thank you. Um, and you mentioned earlier sometimes there are supply chain or manufacturing constraints. And maybe this next question sort of gets to that, you know, uh, a, a recent Cosmo factory episode. Um, I got to interview the CEO of Verity. This is a company that specializes in aluminum and stainless steel beauty packaging.
So I, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on, on, when it makes sense to incorporate actual metal or fully metal containers into a design and when some of these metallic finishes or reflective decoration that you're mentioning, maybe other materials, like you've said, the color is very significant, so maybe it's not even metal, but the color or feel of of silver.
Do you have some particular criteria to make those material choices or is it sort of [00:08:00] what is possible in terms of manufacturing? How do you decide? Is it actually metal or not?
Andrea: Let's say it depends from a lot of, uh, point of view. Uh, nowadays there is a recyclability of product that is, uh, key. Uh, the sustainability factor is, uh, is very important and drivers us on choosing one material or another material. Um, so nowadays there are many option where aluminum is a very sustainable solution.
When is, uh, possible to detach it, uh, from, uh, uh, for example, the other components, uh, and the immediate, the look and feel of a product, uh, it elevates because it's, uh, it's cold at the surface. It's very reflective. Um. Metalization of plastic, uh, for sure can replicate a bit. What, what with the aluminum, let's say, look and feel, but then when you touch it is completely different.
And even from a sustainability point of view, let's say there are, uh, some discussion [00:09:00] on, uh, let's say the regulation is, uh, different country by country, uh, even on methodized plastic. So, um. Then there is also constraint about, uh, minimum order quantities to, for example, anodize, uh, the aluminum. So to make special color, uh, that, uh, com, com, if you compare it with, uh, metalization of plastic for sure, you have, uh, IM acute, the color matching is also difficult.
Let's say we also do primary packaging, then secondary packaging. And for sure, for example, uh, we. Do also doi pack and flexible packaging. And nowadays we are working on a specific plastic, uh, that comes from PPE that, uh, compare with, uh, a aluminum file, uh, but really with a small percentage it can be still recyclable.
So we can claim it like a mono material, pp toy pack, even if it's full metal. So let's say, [00:10:00] let's say the. The constraint is always about even how the. Our customer. So the brand wants to promote where they want to position the product. And even the shelf's life pro, uh, the shelf's life of product is very important because, uh, even when we talk about PPWR, uh, we are, we are talking about long.
Term, uh, for sure, uh, action that will influence the market. But sometimes brand wants just to launch product to make the sales grow, maybe for a short period, like six month limited edition. And so then even let's say the priorities on a project, uh, then follow, let's say the business need.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wow. There's a lot of factors involved and I, I appreciate hearing too about material. Innovation there. That's super interesting. Um, I wanna think about a different sort of design trend, and that is the fact that elements of nature are showing [00:11:00] up in design. And, and again, I'll, I'll draw on some of my knowledge about the beauty ingredient and formulation sector to say that water technologies, um, water alternatives.
Various sources of water, even product formats that evoke water are important for our industry. I think the same is true for clay and soil. I, I spoke, uh, with UTA Scientific earlier this year about their soil microbe ingredient, for instance. Uh, so it's not surprising, right? Elements like stone and water are showing up in your packaging designs.
And I would even put ceramic materials in here, uh, that gets human hands involved a bit, but ceramics risk. Eventually Clay, they have a, a fairly earthy feel. Can you tell us how you're creating packaging that looks or feels like stone or water and maybe what sort of brands or products align with this type of design?
Andrea: Yeah, let's say there is a lot of, uh, uh, request. It was coming a lot from the COVID period. So we see, uh, there a huge request of, uh, maybe because everybody was stuck at home, uh, and [00:12:00] whenever there was the opportunity to go. Into the network and to reconnect to the network. Everybody was going there. So in the last five years, we have, uh, the, a lot of growth, uh, of demand of, uh, let's say natural look products that, uh, uh, basically can be divided into macro area.
One is, uh, recreating natural effect by the finishes by decoration. So we develop some stone effect lacking, uh, some watery lacquering. That, uh, uh, communicate the look and feel of, uh, for example, a wet product or a, a stone look product. And from the other side, even from a design perspective, from a product design perspective, even the use of geometries more organic, more let's say rounded, more natural, something that connect a little bit more, uh, with, uh, the, the classic shapes that we, we have in mind.
Thinking about the nature, so. Uh, let's say we [00:13:00] have this kind of two different approach, depending from the brand we have in front of, and speaking also about ceramic. Um, ceramic is, uh, uh, communicating, uh, and craft. The products, let's say something that is really made by the hand, by the human being. So yeah, even here, the reconnection between, uh, let's say a product and, uh, uh, the people is very important.
And, uh, even in this case, uh. You can work in two different ways. So, or using real ceramic that, uh, there is a, a, a trend of using this kind of packaging, not only in beauty, but even in, uh, other, uh, markets. The problem is that, uh, nowadays ceramic packaging are not recyclable. Uh, so ceramic is not recyclable.
We are trying to, to, we're, no, we're not trying, we are developing and presenting officially in, , the next, uh, looks back, a la wearing that is, uh, very special, is coming from another completely different segment, and that will allow [00:14:00] us to replicate even all the defects of, uh, the ceramic, uh, finishes on material like glass and plastic.
So let's say even. Defects and, uh, uncontrolled effect given by laqua that gives, uh, a sort, a sort of natural feeling to the product itself. But, uh, in a word that the cosmetic is in industrial world, so is a word that, uh, uh, speak about optimization, uh, speak about, uh, numbers and quantities, uh, that will also allow us to have a ceramic look, product that will maintain, that will remain recyclable.
So like. Class and plastic that uh, you can still recycle in the correct way.
Deanna: That's so cool. Um, I, I wanna move on to a topic that, that maybe feels a bit more commercial. Um, and this is the idea of beauty packaging as a wearable accessory. Uh, uh, despite what we see, uh, on social media. Not everyone has labu boo dolls clipped to their handbags. Some folks are wearing lipstick or other beauty products as a bag charm [00:15:00] or, or fashion accessory.
Can you tell us about the demand you're seeing for this sort of, uh, wearable beauty?
Andrea: Let's say the demands, uh, quite important, uh, I think is given by the fact that nowadays, uh, uh, fashion and beauty and let's say even interior design, they are. Super connected and something like a cosmetic that used to be hidden in our bathroom nowadays starts to be part of the, let's say furniture. If you speak about own fragrances and candles and these kind of products, or wearable, when you think about travel sites, so
Deanna: Yeah, absolutely.
Andrea: May because it's also, uh, a, like an amulet, like, uh, something that you would like to show off because you are in trend because, uh, there are influencer. You see influencer brands that are making this kind of product that are, uh, not only cosmetics, but they are. [00:16:00] Trans product. It's a completely new categories.
So this kind of demand is really growing because, uh, it also opened the door to cooperation between brands that comes from different, uh, world. So it's easy for, um. Some, for example, brand in France or in Italy to develop this kind of high-end product that stay, uh, on, on the bags from another side is really, uh, easy for, uh, uh, Asian, uh, brands or American brands that are more linked to everything around the body to develop product that, uh, you can, uh, uh, let's say hook to, to your pants or like on a chain or your neck.
Uh, so it's, uh. Very growing these kind of demands.
Deanna: That's so fascinating and I'm wondering if you can say anything about what makes, uh, wearable beauty packaging successful. When do you know it's working well for the brand and the consumer?
Andrea: I think, uh, when it goes viral, [00:17:00] viral
Deanna: Yes,
Andrea: nowadays, our, let's say how we measure the success is, uh, virality on. Social media that also drives the request on the shops. Uh, and then we are the manufacturer, so we are part of the chain for sure. We see the more a, a product goes viral for sure, the more grow the demand.
Deanna: Yes. No, that makes very good sense, and there's so much to cover with beauty packaging. I, I wanna switch a little bit again and, and think a bit about a dispensing trend. Um, I wanna ask you about foam technology in particular. Um, just as a, a first question. Here, what product categories do you see foams being used in most?
What's, what's most foamy these days?
Andrea: So nowadays for me it's, it's really crossing a lot of different categories, so usually. Product, uh, for me, product, they were used to be used, uh, in, uh, [00:18:00] personal care slash skincare. So for clean hair, product, et cetera, for sure, for eye care. Uh, nowadays I'm seeing, using it even in, uh, uh, sun Care, for example, that, uh, it was, uh, for me, uh, a, a good, uh, really.
Something nice to discover. Uh, and uh, I, I see that is crossing a lot.
There is a premiumization of that kind of products. So, uh, people are, contract manufacturer are investing a lot in research and development on this kind of formulation. There is for sure a, an experience part of the use of, for that, uh, uh, unify functionality and design. Gives you a user experience that is, uh, for sure, fantastic.
Uh, there is a sort of magic, I think, uh, to see this cloudy, uh, formulation going outside the packaging. And so, um, [00:19:00] nowadays that experience, the user experience of a product is so important. There is, uh, even a, let's say even the innovation, uh, rate is growing. So brands that uh, try to, to fify formulation to find, to, to launch new product on the market.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. And given what you've just said, I, I can't imagine that this product format, trend will, will come to an end, but do you see that that foam is very much here to stay? Is it, is it much more normal now?
Andrea: I think, uh, yes. Uh, the, the challenge is, uh. Just to make it, uh, let's say, to reinvent it, not, not to be stuck in a specific format, but being able to make it, let's say, grow and change during the time, uh, as much as, uh, let's say the consumer do.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and a final question about foam I think is, um. You know, related to your expertise, which is, which is design. [00:20:00] How does foam dispensing influence design? Does it change what's possible? Does it change the consumer gesture? Um, like the materials, I, I'm not even sure what to ask here, but how, how does a foam dispenser, uh, sort of impact the design work you do?
Andrea: Let, let's say from, uh, our expertise, so we are using, there are a lot of, there are different, uh, uh, dispensing system for, uh, uh, for former product. We are specialized in the, uh, most classic one with a plastic pump, with the engine, with the, uh, with the spring inside. Uh, we are for sure working on mono material, uh, pump.
Also in this, uh, in this case we working on creating new formats. Uh. When I was saying premiumization of the packaging, we launched it three years ago. Uh, the first former in glass, uh, 150 ml size, then followed by the a hundred ml size. And at the last cost of, we launched at the two travel size that I don't like too much to [00:21:00] call them travel size because to me at 30 M and 50 M can be a new format, a new.
Can open, let's say, the way up on new formulation that can stay in this kind of format, but in glass. So elevating given a product that usually is used to stay in plastic in the packaging where you can put a lot of decoration. What is interesting is that, uh, the, the forming, the, the, the, the engine, the pump, uh, the engine of the pump, it's.
Quite big, so you are always a little bit linked to some diameter and some dimension. That from the other point of view, is also an advantage because this component is such a technical components that is so easy. To combine a former product with a refill, so it can be with a pouches because you have a large neck, so it's super easy to refill.
It can be a pouches. It can also be another glass bottle with a cup, and you just replace the, like you use the bottle as a recharge [00:22:00] and you reuse the pump because this kind of pump, the pump, let's say all the pumps are produced. To, to list, uh, as much longer as possible, much more than what they usually dispense.
So if you think about 30 ml bottle and the pump, uh, it can last like 20 times, 30 times the, the, the quantity, the amount of product they are dispensing. And so the, even in the, the formula is, uh, even. Technical, let's say components, technical packaging, that, uh, I think it's very important if in the future we, and very important.
I think it's also, uh, we, we, we will see a lot of, uh, product and brand that will combine refillable solution and former, uh, packaging,
Deanna: Oh, that's.
Andrea: No, let's say the, the constraint are more linked to, to, to, to the fact that you have a liquid that have to be transformed in this pump that has a big chamber. And so there are [00:23:00] dimension constraint in the type of packaging we are using nowadays.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. No, that's fantastic. I haven't seen the, the glass version you were describing it, it sounds amazing. Um, and Andrea, I have to say, I feel like we could talk forever about packaging design trends. I, I thank you truly for joining me here today on the Cosmo Factory Podcast.
Andrea: Thank you for inviting me.