COSMOFACTORY

This transcript is automatically generated, and manually edited.
Deanna: [00:00:00] this episode is about indie brand innovation. It's about professional hair care, about powder to lather formulation, about designing and realizing original packaging. It's about consumer behavior and much more. Stephanie Farsht, co founder and CEO at small wonder is my guest today on the CosmoFactory podcast.
Deanna: Welcome Stephanie.
Stephanie: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Deanna: Oh, I'm so glad you could join us. Um, for several years now, uh, we know that waterless or what we might call just add water beauty has become increasingly commonplace. We're seeing, um, ingredient makers presenting water alternatives, as well as developing more ingredients in powder form, uh, we're seeing countless brands creating solid skincare, solid.
Deanna: hair care, solid body care. We're also seeing concentrated formulations and formulas that intentionally require less water sometimes for consumer use, as well as more and more formulations that use less water in manufacturing. And also [00:01:00] that eliminate the weight, the volume, the environmental impact, right.
Deanna: Of shipping and transporting these water laden products. So. As water conservation in our industry progresses, I would say that we're not just seeing good ideas come to market, which we've seen for, for many years now, but we're getting into true innovation in this space. Um, a case in point would be, uh, actually an interview I had on episode 18 of the Cosmo factory podcast here.
Deanna: And that was all about just add water skincare from the contract manufacturing company called OPA. And Stephanie, what you and your colleagues at. Um, and I think the way that small wonder have developed is perhaps equally innovative. So just start off, if you will, by telling us about the small wonder signature shampoo.
Deanna: Yeah, yeah,
Stephanie: Um, so the innovation in this industry is beyond exciting from our perspective. And we've been watching this since 2019 as we're sitting on the sidelines, watching companies like blue land start to concentrate tablets for the cleaning, cleaning industry. And our frustration was, how can we do this in [00:02:00] cleaning?
Stephanie: How can we do this in laundry? How can we do this in a countless? Um, number of categories like dental with toothpaste tablets, but not do it in the 1 place where you have a tremendous amount of water, which is your shower. And so, um, to summarize the last 4 years of painful innovation, many challenges as we've created the 1st, what we believe salon grade Lux powder to lather hair care brand where you truly dispense like a normal hair care product, normal hair care shampoo pump in the shower.
Stephanie: The powder hits your hand in a very easy manner, and all you do is activate it into luxurious salon grade shampoo or conditioner. Um, so we try to not alter consumer behavior, but we try to dramatically alter, um, the product that gets you to where you, um, normally operate. So it's not a very new complicated category.
Stephanie: It's really just the way we're delivering it. And we actually believe the delivery and the experience and the outcome are significant upgrades.
Deanna: And I'm sure we'll get to all [00:03:00] that. Thank you for that overview. Um, I do want to start off by thinking about the formula. I believe you said it includes a proprietary ingredient or compound that actually allows you to use less water than maybe the usual manufacturing process for a shampoo would. What can you share with us about that technology?
Deanna: Okay.
Stephanie: So it's a proprietary compound called shine. 37. it's actually a cold. Cold press cold wax press approach. I always have trouble saying that about 90 percent less water. It also doesn't use hot water. So it's a significantly, um, more sustainable approach. Um, it also delivers incredible conditioning agents in both our shampoo and our conditioner.
Stephanie: And so. You can imagine all the oils that are in your traditional conditioner. Very challenging to get encapsulated into some form of powder. This has enabled us to bypass that process and still deliver the same outcome.
Deanna: Wow. Excellent. That's very interesting. I didn't realize it was in both, um, both formulations and I, I know that is a, a challenge [00:04:00] to keep all the necessary ingredients, um, for, you know, consumers get very familiar with a particular, um, application experience with a very particular benefit experience, um, and preserving that as we change product format can be really challenging.
Stephanie: Yeah, it's been what we believe our secret sauce. Obviously there are a whole host of other really important clean ingredients that are in both of our formulas. But the Shine 37 is kind of that final nuance that really makes your hair feel incredibly soft, hydrated. clarified and not heavy. Um, so we hear that consistently from the feedback from both style professional stylists as well as our consumers that their hair has never felt more light and fluffy.
Stephanie: They use the word fluffy quite often hydrate, um, not stripped our color. Um, clients are really excited that their color looks more vibrant. It's never, um, impacting or making their color more brass, brassy. We, we attribute a lot of that to our shine 37 proprietary
Deanna: [00:05:00] very cool. Um, I do understand and I hope you're okay sharing this, but you have had some, some challenges developing a powder conditioner. Um, how is that going? Where is your team at with that?
Stephanie: Um, it, we actually had always anticipated shampoo as being the holy grail, um, and had thought if we could unlock shampoo, we would be able to unlock the entire hair category in terms of lines of products. Um, we were quite surprised at how hard conditioner was. We, we spent about 2. 5 years formulating and iterating on the shampoo got to a point where we really got tremendous feedback and positive feedback and accolades from the industry and from the professional community and then shifted focus to conditioner thinking that would be a much, much faster path.
Stephanie: Encapsulating heavy conditioning oils was challenging. We first had clumping. Um, we had, uh, challenges getting it activated. We had challenges having a collapse in your hair. Once it actually hit your hair, we went through iteration after iteration after iteration and finally [00:06:00] got to a point where we actually felt that the condition was almost more magical than the shampoo about to fill our patented bottles that we had spent almost 3 years designing, um, Manufacturing and patenting and, um, within the same week, we recognize that it would not dispense effectively.
Stephanie: The powder was so heavy. It was collapsing under its own weight. The dispensing mechanism was basically shutting down on us. And so we've spent the last 6 months, uh, redesigning, reengineering, remanufacturing just the cap system for our conditioner bottles. A very painful process, but the outcome is actually a much better version 2.
Stephanie: 0 bottle. And now our next evolution of our shampoo will be in this new bottle as well. Um, it's, it's a, it's a better mechanism. You can't see what I'm doing right now, but our old bottle, um, you couldn't actually hear how much you were dispensing each time. It's calibrated to 1 pump of shampoo, but there was no audible hold.
Stephanie: Confirmation or validation from our consumers and a lot of them actually asked for it. And so this new version 2. [00:07:00] 0 is a audible and sensorial experience. When you actually press down. It's quite satisfying. It also doesn't allow any of the shampoo or conditioner to stick at the bottom. Some consumers were getting some goop at the bottom if their hands are really wet, and they're going in for a 2nd pump.
Stephanie: So we've eliminated all of kind of the smaller, Okay. Amounts of feedback in our version 2 and we're pretty excited that this model has moved us forward. We just hadn't anticipated that it would happen that quickly.
Deanna: Yes. Yes. Oh, no. I appreciate hearing all of that. Very, very informative. And I do want to talk about packaging a bit further. But before we do, um, let's backtrack a bit. You mentioned you started sort of paying attention to this waterless consumer products category in 2019, I believe. And correct me on all of this if I'm, if I'm not right.
Deanna: Um, but small wonder actually got established in about 2020 and then it was early this year. So 2024, when you launched the first product, is that correct?
Stephanie: That's correct. That's how long the path has taken. Um, 2020 was really when we [00:08:00] incorporated and started working with a very large global salon manufacturer. They had spent about 9 years working on. There's no better way to say this, but dehydrating their top salon. Shampoos, how do you dehydrate? How do you actually use the right types of ingredients that activate fast and still deliver that salon grade benefit or professional benefits?
Stephanie: We spent about 2 plus years with them, just prototyping over and over again, and getting all the customer discovery back from pilot groups to really understand. Um, what would make this a true upgrade? Um, we ended up initially at pods. We thought we had a brilliant solution where you could repackage these beautiful pods.
Stephanie: They were transportable, very easy to go on a trip with. You could take a pod to the health club. Um, you could dispense the pod very easily in your shower with kind of a PEZ type dispenser, which we had thought would be a very easy experience. Um, and we distributed it to about 100 different pilot customers for us, and the feedback was unanimous.
Stephanie: 50 people hated it because the pod [00:09:00] wasn't big enough for the amount of hair that they had, and they felt that it was very wasteful to add a 2nd pod and 50 people hated it because the pod was too big and they felt that they were washing down half of the pod. In the drain, because they didn't need as much shampoo.
Stephanie: And so we very quickly realized that the primary insight from that pilot experience is that, um, pre dosing does not work. Um, so that was where we spent a lot of our time and then pivoted, um, pretty rapidly to dispensing, just pure powder. Um, and that evolution kind of took us through the experience of needing a very, very smart, functional bottle that dispenses like a normal shampoo bottle, but keeps powder dry in the shower, which was no easy feat.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned, um, that the branch has received some accolades. I believe you have a, an award from Marie Claire. I know, um, at Cosmoprof, the North American edition in Las Vegas, you received an award. Um, but most recently, um, you received a, a, An impressive award for the packaging that, that I'd like to talk about now.
Deanna: This was the, um, it's the [00:10:00] IDEA award, um, presented by a longstanding nonprofit membership association called the Industrial Designers Society of America. Um, so I think, yeah, quite exciting, um, to actually make some real change in the packaging space. Um, I'm hoping you can describe the packaging for everyone listening, and I'll, I'll chime in if there.
Deanna: Notes that I feel like, um, people can't see, um, I'm, I'm sure you're very familiar with it, um, and, and might overlook something, but, but tell us, um, what we're looking at, um, when we look at small wonder packaging.
Stephanie: So, if you go to our website, you can see it because it's in action on our video. That's the best way to experience it experience it. It's not world or on our Instagram. It is refillable it is about 6 inches high, which is significantly smaller than most. Traditional shampoo bottles, yet it has the same number of washes as a 10 fluid ounce bottle.
Stephanie: So, um, if you can imagine a very bold, bright, deep [00:11:00] magenta color, aluminum based, um, really beautiful. We've created a design that we believe would become an iconic shape and design. It's utility and design patented.
Deanna: and it's almost a, a, a very elongated or stylized hourglass, isn't it?
Stephanie: Absolutely. We, we were inspired by a salt and pepper grinder. Um, what we realized very quickly is you need to dispense from the bottom, not from the top, because in the shower water is coming from the top. We wanted to keep things as dry as possible. So all you do is press down like a normal. Um, salt, salt or pepper shaker grinder, you press down and every press is calibrated to 1 pump of shampoo.
Stephanie: So if you're a 2 pump girl, you're going to press twice. If you're a 3 pump girl, you're going to press 3 times. I'm like a half pump girl because I have very thin hair. Um, so I just press down almost. You know, 75 percent of the way and I get enough powder that sprays out into my hand. And then the minute you let go, it auto seals because
Deanna: And let me just.
Stephanie: that deal to protect from humidity and water.
Deanna: Sorry, I didn't mean to, um,
Stephanie: No, no, [00:12:00] no.
Deanna: remarks there, um, but in the shower, the consumer would be holding the bottle in one hand, um, vertically as it sits, you know, the same way it would sit on their, you know, the edge of their shower or shelf, um, and they just simply, um, press it into the palm of their other hand, um, and that's where the powder lands.
Stephanie: Exactly. And, um, I really designed this for myself in some senses because I play tennis and I have some arthritis in my arm. 2018, 2019, when my arthritis was really bad and I had tennis elbow was when I had the bottom third of the goop left in my large shampoo bottle that was single use plastic and water.
Stephanie: I had struggles getting the last one third out. It would always hurt my hand. And so in some senses, this is a significant upgrade for most consumers because you're just pressing down with one hand and then you're putting it back on the shelf and it auto seals.
Deanna: Right. Less dexterity required.
Stephanie: Exactly. Um, and then when you finish with your, um, 70 grams of, of [00:13:00] powder, which is about two to six months, depending on how much hair you have and how often you shower for me, it's about five months.
Stephanie: You can purchase one of our refills, which is paper based it's cardboard. It's recyclable with your paper. If you only have paper recycling in your building or in your house, or you can actually just stick it in your tomato plant in the backyard. And in 60 days it will biodegrade. So you just refill the bottle.
Stephanie: Um, Throw out, recycle, compost the refill and you're truly in a waste free system, which is pretty exciting.
Deanna: And I really appreciated your explaining earlier that, um, you know, not only is the, the packaging intentionally designed in terms of, you know, sustainability and consumer use, um, but also to really, um, work in collaboration, right. With the product formula, which is the real, um, perhaps the, the first change, right, that your brand is making, but it required the packaging change so that they, they work well together and, and, and, and, and, and, Um, one of the more nuanced packaging examples that we're quite familiar with in [00:14:00] beauty, right, is mascara packaging, where we see the formula, the applicator wand, the wiper that actually controls the product load on the spoolie end of the wand.
Deanna: Um, these must work together, right, for the product to deliver on its claims. And it seems to me that what your team has created, uh, with the powder shampoo formula and then the packaging that we've just been considering, there's that same level of interconnectedness, um, and that, and that that's really one of the, Is it a challenge or an opportunity that we're solving for with this, this waterless, um, evolution, isn't it?
Stephanie: And we view it as an opportunity. Um, we were, we were very focused on the formula for, I would say, the 1st, 18 months, and then very quickly realized after that, that the packaging would need to be custom developed for this experience to really work. We made a few mistakes in the beginning and, um, tried some off the shelf packaging.
Stephanie: Uh, that was truly just a disaster. We had clumping, water got in. Um, we had feedback from customers very quickly and very rapidly that this was not going to cut it. [00:15:00] Um, and so we knew that, um, in order to create a true Mastige Lux sustainable brand, that wasn't just going after the, the, the far end of the spectrum for eco and sustainable, we want to, we want to make a large impact.
Stephanie: We want to be large. Um, we needed to, um, upgrade every aspect of the experience. So we start with performance and efficacy. All of our ingredients are more potent. They're not sitting in diluted water. There's no added fillers. There's no added preservatives or extra preserve. No extra preservatives. Sorry.
Stephanie: Not no added preservatives. Um, we're truly clean. Um, we then went to the packaging and said, it needs to be more beautiful in your shower. It needs to be more efficient, more small. Your linen closet better look better. Better with the refills, because it's a gorgeous design. It's tiny. It doesn't take up a lot of space.
Stephanie: Um, it's travel friendly. So now you can travel without worrying about having goop, you know, show up in your adopt kit, which has happened to all of us. We wanted to make every single aspect and upgrade and oh, by the way, it's better for the planet. That was really our 4th or [00:16:00] 5th benefit that we wanted to communicate, communicate to customers because we knew that adoption was going to be led with performance and efficacy, not with sustainability.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned, um, you know, experimenting with stock packaging, and then we talked about the industrial design award, obviously working with, um, industrial, uh, design professionals really suggests that there's an opportunity, um, not only for brands like yours, but for suppliers to help make these sorts of packaging innovations, perhaps more practical, um, more local for every market globally.
Deanna: I'm imagining, like you said, since it's not an off the shelf or stock option, um, that it's a little bit more, um, challenging to pull together. Um, yeah. Do you have any notes or ideas for suppliers who are looking waterless beauty product space?
Stephanie: It's interesting, I think, um, one of the biggest learnings that we've had from our industrial design partner that helped us design this bottle was [00:17:00] simplicity is the complexity. Um, so designing the most simple, yet most functional approach is what's going to win. And so we, we came in with huge ideas.
Stephanie: Let's do sensor based where you put your hand under and it dispenses the perfect amount. And if you keep it there for a little bit longer, it means you have longer hair. We just were all over the place. And the one thing that they. really taught us and kept us on track to do was to create the most simple, most functional, most beautiful packaging possible.
Stephanie: Um, doesn't mean that the actual bottle is simple. It's, it's got some true complexity in there, but from a functional perspective, it's simple. And the, the walk for consumers is very short.
Deanna: Mm hmm.
Stephanie: coming from my 15 years at Target, I know what it takes to change consumer behavior. And we didn't want to go down that path.
Stephanie: It is a very challenging process. And so we wanted. Um, someone like my 83 year old mom to pick this up and be able to use it right away. And we would test it on her and she was able to use it right away. We wanted to have a very, very [00:18:00] easy walk for consumers that had 60 years of using normal shampoo bottles to 1 year of using normal shampoo bottles to be able to pick this up and think this is actually a massive improvement.
Deanna: Yeah. And I think that's really what we're getting at, right? For an innovation to be successful, things somehow, um, have to be better, but they also have to change. Um, consumers have to change, the industry has to change, um, and I, I, I think you said to me when we spoke, um, last week that sometimes this sort of change, um, and probably for both consumers and the industry, this is true, that mental barriers are quite big, um, and it can really affect how people view, um, a con Um, a behavior change or, or even like this, a design change.
Deanna: So I'm hoping you can say more about what your brand is doing to facilitate consumer adoption. Um, let, yeah, let's start there.
Stephanie: It's something we've spent a tremendous amount of time debating and discussing, um, especially after Cosmoprof and winning that award. The shiny objects that popped up after that experience was a bit [00:19:00] overwhelming. Um, we have tried to stay very focused and true to our Our core DNA, which is the professional community.
Stephanie: And so we're pushing all the shiny objects off to the side right now and staying focused on what we believe is the tip of the spear. We absolutely have to be in salons. And that is where that first experience is going to be critical to conversion. Those professional stylists are the best at exposing their clients and customers to something that's new.
Stephanie: That's something that's better. They can show how it works. They can explain why it works better. Why these. Freshly activated ingredients each day are better than the ones that are sitting in diluted water for 6 months. Um, and, and, and they are, um, our absolute best sales force. So that is where all of our focus is right now.
Stephanie: We've learned a tremendous amount from our early salon partners, which has been really, um, we're really grateful for. We have a really nice community online of, um, professionals that have given us great feedback. They've tested our conditioner for us. They've purchased for their [00:20:00] retail shelves and given us feedback on POS.
Stephanie: And. Um, materials and case packs and all the things we didn't understand before jumping into this industry. Um, so we're very grateful for that and are staying extremely focused on that world.
Deanna: sure, sure. And, you know, the packaging that we've talked to, um, feels very consumer friendly. Is it, um, the same packaging that you're using, um, for Backbar?
Stephanie: Um, that is. That is what we're using now for backbar. We're trying to learn as much as we can. There is no question in the future. We're going to eventually have to design and customize a special backbar program. Um, right now, our stylists that have purchased Small Wonder and have it in their salons are enjoying using this.
Stephanie: It's obviously not a great volume. Um, scenario for a very large salon if you're if you're watching 100 customers
Deanna: of refills.
Stephanie: There's a lot of refills, which is not great for an average size salon. It's wonderful. Um, but for these very large salons that do have interest in stocking small wonder, we're going to eventually have to design something, but back [00:21:00] to learning 1st and designing 2nd.
Stephanie: We're in the learning phase.
Deanna: Yeah. And you said earlier that, um, you know, to make a large change, you really need to build a sizable brand. Let's think about moving the whole industry towards waterless. Um, what does that mean? How is, how is your brand going to, you know, help the industry at large or help other, other brands in this space advance?
Stephanie: It's a great question. Um, I think when I taught at Northwestern for 8 years, 1 of the biggest fears that are that our students would come come to us with is, oh, my God, we just found another competitor. In whatever space they were trying to tackle, um, and all of the professors would say, that's great.
Stephanie: That's actually validation. And we feel the same way. So we don't want to be the only 1 out there. We'd be thrilled if some of the bigger, um, bigger conglomerates jump in because it just validates the industry and develops that consumer adoption. Macro trend. Um, so it's not a bad thing. It's a good thing.
Stephanie: Obviously, we want to have a seat at the table. It's an incredibly large [00:22:00] industry. Um, and so if we play a small or medium part in getting that industry there, we're thrilled, but we're going to have to hit it from every angle and and. I started this personally from a social impact perspective. We want to get water out of this industry.
Stephanie: We want to get refill into this industry, all the different components of sustainability, which are beyond just getting water out of the product. But we know that we're going to need shampoo bars. We're going to need powder. We're going to need pods. We're going to need refill bars. We're going to need every possible innovation in this industry to eliminate the 40 percent of the climate's waste that ends up in.
Stephanie: Landfills, oceans, et cetera, from the beauty industry. And so, um, we're not afraid of competition. We're actually thrilled by it. So
Deanna: Yeah, no, that's such a healthy reminder, um, you know, for other brands in this space and in other areas of innovation, right? It, it does mean that there is a consumer appetite when we have competition, but also, um, it can really accelerate consumer adoption and effective change. That's, [00:23:00] that's a well made point for sure.
Deanna: So, before we wrap up, I, I kind of want to ask a question about, um, future products in your pipeline. Um, once, once we get this conditioner sorted out, um, what else might we expect from small wonder? But if you have other notes on, on the brand or, you know, You know, the evolution again of waterless beauty or innovation in general.
Deanna: I'd be happy to hear that as well. So a little future forecast for the brand, but then any other closing thoughts?
Stephanie: It's a good question. We're, we're spending a lot of time thinking through our product roadmap and the 1 North star that we have is, um. A very intentional release of skews if they solve specific problems that we know we're out to solve. So, for example, if if there is a hair care product that is better in powder form and act activated freshly each day versus in liquid.
Stephanie: That's a really great match for us. So 1 of the, the, um. research endeavors we're going through right now [00:24:00] is looking at serums. Um, for example, vitamin C is something that degrades within 40 percent within, I think, four weeks when sitting in liquid. Yet so many of the serums, the protective heat serums that are out in the market right now are vitamin C.
Stephanie: And so by the time they get to consumers, the vitamin C is not very potent. It's basically, um, inactive. And so if you can freshly activate small wonders serum every morning in your hands and have a hundred percent. Um, potency from that vitamin serum vitamin C to protect your hair protected from the heat protected from UV and defrizz, we have a competitive advantage there in that form factor.
Stephanie: So that's something that's very important to us. We're not going to just do scoop proliferation to do that. We did that at Target when we first started at the Target. We had things like windmills with our million SKUs in 2001. And then we very quickly, let's be a little bit more intentional, have some long tail, but have every SKU have meaning.
Stephanie: That's how we operate at Small Wonder, but obviously on a much smaller scale than a Target. So that is, that's our north star for [00:25:00] now. All eyes are on conditioner. We're in final production with our new cap system to accommodate this heavier powder. Super excited about the conditioner formula. It is fantastic.
Stephanie: We didn't think it was gonna be more fantastic than the shampoo, but we actually think it will be, which is hard to imagine 'cause
Deanna: Sometimes good things come out of big challenges.
Stephanie: feels like birthing another baby. So it's, it's, it's a very intense process, but we're almost there. So we're excited for that. Um, other things about small wonder is we think that this form factor actually has a tremendous amount of benefit as, as I was mentioning with the, um, freshly activated, more potent, less fillers, reduced preservative needs, all those components.
Stephanie: Plus the fact that you're able to ship these tiny little bottles that are almost, um, Tiny and mighty, which is exactly our, um, our motto, tiny, mighty, beautiful. So we're pretty excited about that. And then the, the idea award, the idea award is a pretty amazing experience for us. Um, when you start to [00:26:00] understand the history and the, um, the predecessors of who has won that award companies like Apple, Nike, Theragun, um, Tesla, um, my favorite car, which is what I have, um, the Hyundai Ioniq.
Stephanie: Major, major, um, progressions in innovation where we truly see the industries moving forward and taking major leaps to be now amongst the likes of those guys is a surreal experience to step back and think this really could be where the future is in hair care. And it's because of the major risks and leaps that we've taken so far.
Stephanie: So we're excited. We're really, we believe this is the future of hair care and we're excited that we're getting such great feedback today.
Deanna: Excellent. Excellent. Well, congratulations on the award and thank you for all of this. I have to say, Stephanie, this has been a very encouraging conversation about the potential of brand innovation and really the importance of investing in new technologies. So thank you for being on the Cosmo Factory podcast.
Stephanie: Thank you so much for having me. It was fun.
Deanna: Yeah, you're [00:27:00] welcome.