COSMOFACTORY

Deanna: [00:00:00] This episode is about scalable wild harvesting. It's about illicit crop substitution in Colombia. It's about developing sustainable economies that can help preserve the Amazon rainforest. And it's about a natural oil.
Deanna: With desirable sensorial attributes and anti aging skincare benefits on today's episode of the Cosmo factory podcast. My guest is Camilo Bueno, co founder and managing director of Cary-O. Welcome.
Camilo: Hi, Deanna. Thanks for the [00:01:00] invitation and having me here.
Deanna: Absolutely. Glad to chat with you. Um, let's get started. Um, if you don't mind, just by introducing us to the company you lead, tell us about Cary-O.
Camilo: Okay, so Cary-O comes from the scientific name of Cacay. Cacay is a nut from the Amazon, and the scientific name is Caryodendron Orinocense. There's where the name Cary-O comes from and Cacay is a native tree to the Amazon rainforest is an amazing tree up to 40 meters tall and the nut that this tree produces and the oil inside the nut is an incredible oil for skin care purposes.
Camilo: purposes. It's an oil that has been anciently being used by the indigenous communities in the Amazon rainforest to heal wounds. And this is how the community in Colombia in the cosmetic industry got to know about the potential use of the oil from the coconut in the [00:02:00] international cosmetic industry.
Deanna: Yeah. No, that makes very good sense. Thank you. Um, and, and let's think about wild harvesting too. How does your company define that term? What does it mean?
Camilo: Yeah. Wild harvesting is very different to what the normal agriculture does. In Colombia, the big part of Colombia is nature is still, uh, yeah, rainforest and especially the Amazon rainforest. So in the rainforest, many people look the rainforest and the Amazon just as plants. trees, CO2 storage, but actually the Amazon is a fabric of many different products is the products that the different animals inside of the jungle used to survive, right?
Camilo: And also the indigenous communities. So you can go inside the jungle and meet many different products. Like for example, acai, copaiba, or cacai, [00:03:00] cacai oil, right? Uh, from the cacai nut. And what we do is that we go to the Amazon rainforest. We connect with indigenous communities and that indigenous communities that know about kakai already inside the jungle, and we help them with some infrastructure that is needed for the kakai harvesting, and they start collecting the wild kakai nuts from the ground during the harvest.
Camilo: This is between March and May. And. This wild harvest of cacai, they dry it, they process it, and then we make the cacai oil with a cold pressing method. This is very different to any other agriculture practice where you are really doing a plantation or a multi crop plantation. This is completely different.
Camilo: This is really going to nature, to the jungle, the rainforest, and using the products that this rainforest produces. [00:04:00] Exactly.
Deanna: you for that. As you know, and many of our listeners know, I'm personally a proponent of what I like to think of as industry transparency, do just want to mention, uh, that when your company was first established, um, to prove the concept of kakai oil, Um, you did transition some land that had been used for cattle raising into a plantation there where you're located in Columbia, but now more recently, um, with the demonstrated market value, um, and, and some international partnerships, Cary-O is working as, as you've described with the indigenous peoples to source the ingredient, um, through wild harvesting.
Deanna: So just let me know, do I understand that correctly? Sure. Mm hmm.
Camilo: and this comes from a situation, a particular situation in Colombia and is that we don't really know our biodiversity, even though that we are the richest country in biodiversity per square meter in the world. So what happened? Look, people here in Colombia, look to the Amazon as a Uh, sort of jungle somewhere very far away [00:05:00] from the city.
Camilo: And, uh, there wa there were many research about the products that the Amazon Rainforest, uh, has, and there was Kakai involved. And what was the mentality or the strategy of the people that were first working with Kakai? They thought, okay. Let's bring this wild tree from the Amazon to a plantation. Let's make a plantation, right?
Camilo: And this is how everything started. The industrialization of cacay started really as bringing cacay to a plantation, right? And that's where also we started. We decided to transform the cattle farming in our farm to kakai forests. And at the beginning, it was great. I was very motivated, but then I started to feel, okay, I, I do see that there has [00:06:00] been a positive environmental impact through this transformation of cattle farming to kakai forests.
Camilo: But in the end, we were only just one family. We were just one farm and I wanted the impact to be bigger. And I did know, I did know during that time about this, uh, wild forest economies, right? And I thought, okay, if people are working with forest economies, like for example, for timber production, sustainable timber production, uh, that the main goal of these forest economies is making.
Camilo: the rainforest more profitable than, uh, than grass fields for cattle or a coca plantation. Why shouldn't we think about actually implementing cacai oil and producing cacai oil out from this wild harvest? Because our goal in that moment, when we started to think about it, was Okay, we have been planting [00:07:00] many trees, but meanwhile, the Amazon rainforest is burning, and it's burning because people are looking for opportunities, are looking for making some kind of industry, right?
Camilo: But what if we make and we achieve that the rainforest is more profitable than grass fields? And this is where we started to work together with botanic people and the environmental engineers and so on. To look, okay, where in the Colombian Amazon is Cacay, really? And there is where we landed to a specific town in the south south, very far away from Colombia, a town called Miraflores, a town known in whole Colombia because of the history with coca production, armed conflict, and so on.
Camilo: And we started in 2022 to develop this wild kakai project that was meant to be just focused on wild kakai, working with communities and working for [00:08:00] protecting the Amazon rainforest, thanks to a sustainable wild kakai forest economy.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. And I believe, um, you've partnered with, um, a German government agency now known as, um, the German Society for International Cooperation. Um, it's called GIZ, which is, you know, an acronym based on the agency's German language name, which I am not going to embarrass myself by trying to pronounce.
Deanna: Um, but as one might expect, the GIZ operates to support international cooperation for sustainable development. Tell us more about that partnership and how you're working with them.
Camilo: Yeah, sure. So, exactly. This is the German Agency for International Cooperation, the GIC. Uh, or in German, Gesellschaft für Internationale Zusammenarbeit. So this is different. How, when we first came to this region in 2022, we were just like a small project. No one in the region knew that there could have been [00:09:00] developed a forest economy.
Camilo: No one came before with this idea. And we. Arrived there and we started to look for these wild cacai trees. And what we found was just absolutely amazing. Concentrations of huge and giant cacai trees inside of the jungle and communities that were living under really hardcore poverty conditions. Right. So there is where we decided, okay, we have to do something and it was not easy to decide it because, um, we had already one farm of kakai, right?
Camilo: Our family farm and usually everyone would think, no, let's put all money in our farm is our production belongs to us and so on. Our opinion was it doesn't matter there. We have such opportunity to making an impact and preserving the Amazon rainforest through forest economies. And in this case, wild kakai forest economy.
Camilo: [00:10:00] So we decided to start officially the wild kakai project next year. So in 2023 with one family, we just started to work with one family to see how it will work. And if it could be a larger project in the future. It was a complete success and this is why in the end of 2023. We decided, okay, we want to the project to get bigger to grow it and we, we want to incorporate more families and we want to bring these families the infrastructure.
Camilo: So, in this case, solar dryers, so that they can really harvest and dry the nuts, but we didn't have the money for that because we already were using all the money in our farm, creating the company or clinical studies, many, many things that were very expensive. Thank you. So we didn't have money to just sponsor solar dryers to a dozens of families, and this is where [00:11:00] we came.
Camilo: We decided to go to the GIC, um, because they are known for helping these kind of projects worldwide. So I went there, presented, I did the presentation of the project, and directly they were in love with the project and with the idea. And we started to develop the project together, also considering all the restrictions and all the conditions that such an important entity has.
Camilo: And then we launched the project officially in 2024, February. And since we have already incorporated over 80 families, and we already are protecting, um, legally worth more than 4000 hectares of native Amazon rainforest, thanks to this to this project. And thanks to this cooperation between a company and a public entity like the GIT.
Deanna: No, that's amazing. Thank you for [00:12:00] sharing that. excuse me. I imagine there's still opportunity to grow even further. Is that true?
Camilo: Sure. And we can grow the project further very quickly with a huge impact. The main thing in this situation is the market. We need to develop a bigger market, right? Because I can incorporate as much families as I want. This German entity wants to support us as far as they can, and they really can, can support us in a, in a bigger way.
Camilo: But the big question is, okay, right now we are working with 80 families. If we want to work with 500 families, do we have the market for the cacao oil that we would be producing? And the answer right now is for such an amount of families, no. Um, and also because it's, it's quite, it's quite new, it's quite handy.
Camilo: So we are first working on developing the market. [00:13:00] And we are very, very happy because we have already developed very important clients in Europe, in, in the US. We are working already with some of the most important distributors in the world. And this is something that makes us very proud of. And if we continue working like this and convincing many different laboratories, cosmetic manufacturers to incorporate cacao in their formulations, we can really have a larger impact in the Amazon rainforest.
Camilo: And not only in the rainforest, but also in the communities that are living there under the Really difficult poverty conditions.
Deanna: Yeah, no. And it's very important to make that connection between demand and and sustainability outcomes. That's, that's super helpful. Let's quickly describe if you will, kakai oil, as product developers or cosmetic scientists might think about it. What are some of the benefits or attributes there?
Deanna: Um,
Camilo: Okay, [00:14:00] cacao oil is especially an incredible ingredient for skin care formulations because it has a silky texture, fast, it's very fast absorbing, and it leaves a really nice feeling on the skin. And the like first is the sensorial side. The sensorial side is just amazing using it pure or in a facial oil or in a serum or a cream.
Camilo: You really see a difference if you, for example, develop a cream or a serum using argan oil or cacai oil. If it's a serum with cacai oil, it's much lighter. It absorbs way quicker. The, the, the feeling itself is way, way better. So this sensorial part is very important, like this silky texture is something that laboratories are really looking, uh, to incorporate in the formulations.
Camilo: And then the other side is the benefits to the skin. Kakai oil has proven anti aging [00:15:00] benefits. We have carried out already some clinical studies in Germany, in a very known laboratory there, and the, the, the results in this clinical study are very promising. And we tested elasticity, skin fatigue resistance, reduction of wrinkle depth.
Camilo: and increase in hydration and really in all cases there were remarkable results in these studies. So if you incorporate cacao oil in a formulation then you will have a great sensorial benefit and also a benefit to the skin, especially in anti aging purposes, improving skin tone because it really is great for improving skin tone and bringing hydration.
Deanna: yeah, I know that's helpful to, to hear those details. you know, for, um, for brands and formulators listening, you know, they're also thinking about the quality of an ingredient, the consistent, you know, is it consistently high quality?
Deanna: Is it consistently, um, a particular purity? Um, if folks might be wondering if [00:16:00] weather or rainfall will impact harvest, um, for a company like yours, can you speak to that briefly? Thanks
Camilo: Yeah, sure. Um, cacay, like any other, um, any other vegetable oil has like very big things to be, to consider. And for example, in the case of cacay, it falls. To the ground, not nature, naturally between March and May and the crop, the, the nut is, is so it is planned that these not with the humidity of the Amazon rainforest and the temperature starts creating the root and later on creates a kakai plant, right?
Camilo: And this can be a process that can happen. In one week after the cacai fruit falling to the ground. So first there, there has to be a really, um, responsible work in collecting the cacai nuts. You have to go [00:17:00] every day to the, um, to the jungle and collect the fruits from the ground and directly bring them to the farm.
Camilo: And start drying the cacai nut. If you don't dry the cacai nut directly, the nut will be already starting to oxidize. So, and if the nut, if the cacai nut oxidizes, You will, you will say, you will see it in the cka oil. It will have a ran seed aroma. Uh, the peroxide value will be in incre, incredibly high. So you really have to go every day to collect the kakai fruit.
Camilo: You have to start drying it directly. You need the solar dryers. This, these solar dryers are like big beds with a net, and they put the knot inside, uh, on, on, on top of the net and it's covered by a plastic cover. And because if you. If you let that the nuts get wet because of rainfall and so on, they will really oxidate very quick.
Camilo: So then this the solar [00:18:00] drying system after the cocaine nut has been dried properly, then the work is easier. Then the nut is in good conditions, in a low humidity, and then you can transport it in our case to Bogota. And in Bogota. We carried out cold pressing, uh, to produce the cacao oil. This cold pressing is very, very important.
Camilo: And not just cold pressing on this under 60 degrees, really as lower as we can so that we can preserve the antioxidants in the cacao oil. in the plant where we produce the oil. We have to carry out, carry out a selection, visual selection and manual selection from the nuts because when you really open the nut in when it arrives to Bogota, in our case, It's where you really see if the nut, uh, is good or not.
Camilo: Uh, if you don't do that, it's very probable that you will be incorporating in the cold pressing some nuts [00:19:00] that are already oxidated, and this will have an impact on the caca oil. So we have been focused on developing a product that is especially meant for high end markets like Europe, Korea, Japan, U. S. And this is why every task that we do and every process in the production of the cacao oil
Deanna: supply chain ethics are, of course, also very important. And you had mentioned earlier in our conversation that kakai nuts, um, have been used for, uh, treating wounds and such, um, by local populations. But I believe it's also been used as a food.
Deanna: I'm hoping you can, um, Explain maybe how, um, you're ensuring that beauty makers, um, are not asking these people to give up a food source. Um, obviously they, they can't eat what they're selling. So, so tell us a little bit about that.
Camilo: Yeah, that's a very good question because, and I appreciate, because it's very important that everyone makes as much questions as possible when it's something [00:20:00] related to sustainability. In the case of cacay, cacay nut has been used by indigenous communities since always for nutrition purposes, right?
Camilo: During the harvest season, they eat the cacay nut all the time. But. They just consume one small portion of the production of the rainforest around them. Because as I mentioned before, if you don't dry it very quickly, the nut gets oxidated. And they don't have the solar dryers that we are providing them.
Camilo: So the big, big and large amount of production of cacai is just a waste in the ground in the end. And there are many concepts that we also need to consider, because for example, okay, if the cacai nuts that the indigenous communities were not eating, stayed there under the tree, then the nut tree, like they, [00:21:00] these nuts were in the end food to the tree, right?
Camilo: Uh, and if we take them out. Then there will be a sort of deficit.
Deanna: Right. It changes the nutrition of the soil.
Camilo: Exactly. And there are two very big things to consider. The very first, the very first one is to know that if anyways, we don't do anything with this cacai, People are going to the forest state
Deanna: Yes.
Camilo: slowly, right? And if we wanted to be perfect from the beginning, then we would take too long to start, and this rainforest that we are working with would be already grass fields, right?
Camilo: So this were the decision of, okay, what we are doing is already great. giving value to this rainforest. Then let's start analyzing everything that can happen during the process. And one important thing is this like nutritional benefit, [00:22:00] a deficit long term, if we don't do anything around it. So what we are doing right now.
Camilo: So what we do now is that we work with the communities so that they use the shells of the kakai because the kakai has a shell, so that they use the shell and also other organic waste to produce compost, and they bring this compost back to the tree. So there is no deficit in, under the tree, and the tree can produce kakai, not compost.
Camilo: Um, like every, every year. So these are some of the things that we are considering and we are analyzing. It's great that at least we are working with this German Agency for International Comparison. And since this year, we are working also with the Instituto Humboldt is the most important research institute in Colombia.
Camilo: And with them, we analyze all these kind of aspects, uh, so that we don't have [00:23:00] any negative impact.
Deanna: I'm hoping you can help us think about what beauty industry suppliers can learn from Cary-O about how to realize these more sort of environmentally harmonious opportunities.
Deanna: What can we, what can we take from your, your company, um, and, and scale it, I think in, in other spaces,
Camilo: Yeah, the, the first thing is to be open minded and to be really wanting to look for something new with a large impact. Because in many cases we arrive to a laboratory or a distributor and they are not really interested into new things. They just want to work with bulk volumes. So, for example, olive oil in really large amounts.
Camilo: sweet, sweet almond oil, and they don't want to work like with this, uh, with this kind of special specialities. Right. And so I would like to invite them to be more open minded and interested into developing new stuff. Right. [00:24:00] The second thing is to the, so the, the companies need to educate their, their, their, their workers and their team around sustainability so that they really understand about sustainability, because in some cases we want to convince our client, but they don't even understand what they are doing, uh, what we are doing.
Camilo: So this is something that is very, very important. what for me is the most important thing is that people don't focus more on certifications than on a story because it happens a lot that you arrive to a client to a distributor or a contract manufacturer and they ask you, okay, are you organic certified?
Camilo: Are you Fairtrade? Are you Rainforest Alliance? And so on and so on and so on. What they don't know is that these certifications are extremely expensive, are extremely expensive, and sadly, they don't really, they don't really look at what we're doing. And we have seen it already. [00:25:00] It's incredible. In some cases, you just have to Fill, uh, uh, uh, um, like a formula, right?
Camilo: Uh, a form, and that's it. And you just have to pay. And in the end, because we don't have these certifications, then they say, okay, no, no, no, we cannot work. If it's not for trade, uh, we cannot work if it's not reinforced alliance and so on. And, and this is something very important that they know. That under every project, there is a story and this story is more important than any certification.
Camilo: It's more important to really get to know the team, your partner, your provider, and the place where they are working than just looking to the certifications. Because really, the certifications, in my opinion, they have been really a struggle. To any of these kind of small a projects that want to develop, but in the end, when they are, uh, yeah, in the end working to wanting to enter a [00:26:00] larger market than the large companies, they just can work and want to work with certified products.
Deanna: but to your point, simply because a company Doesn't display, you know, all 25 or whatever of the most, um, sort of on trend certifications doesn't mean that they're not doing very important work, um, in terms of sustainability and doesn't mean that their product isn't high quality or isn't fully traceable.
Deanna: And that's very interesting to think about. I appreciate your sharing that perspective for sure.
Camilo: Yeah, and I would like to add something there and it's we have a knowledge this problem and we cannot change the industry from one day to another. So we accepted the challenge, right, of not having the money to do all these kind of certifications. So what I do is that I really bring The customers to a trip to the Amazon right through videos, pictures, pictures and videos where my [00:27:00] team is involved so that they really see that we are there directly working with the communities and through a great presentation and great storytelling and a lot of And feeling, we convince these people for sure that this project is just something different and, and, and already differing, very important clients.
Camilo: They have already said and thought, okay, we don't need a certification. Like this project has everything we need and they want to sponsor the project right now. They, we have some clients, for example, our distributor in Germany. They are sponsoring the project next year with a five solar dryers, so five different families would get a solar dryer.
Camilo: And this means for each family, at least they will, uh, conserve, uh, conservate 50 hectares of native Amazon rainforest. So, uh, through really a good [00:28:00] storytelling and bringing the people close to the project, we have been able to fight like this. Complexity of all the certification issues.
Deanna: yeah, yeah, no, excellent. Thank you for that. And, I have to say, I'm very happy you were able to join me here on the Cosmo Factory Podcast. Thank you, Camilio, for an inspiring conversation.
Camilo: No, Deanna; it’s a pleasure for me to be here. And really, my dream is to see many more and more and more brands in the future incorporate cacay oil and see the INCI name Caryodendron Orinocense Seed Oil in their INCI list
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