COSMOFACTORY

[00:00:00]
Deanna: This episode is about the art of fragrance and how perfume can reflect and construct identity. It's about the US consumer mindset about individualism. Invisibility and social relevance. It's about fragrance, consumer expectations, product performance, and the details that determine value. On today's episode of The CosmoFactory podcast, I am joined by Miranda Gordon, chief Creative Marketing Officer at Punk [00:01:00] Champagne.
Miranda, welcome to CosmoFactory.
Miranda: Deanna, thank you for having me. I'm delighted to be here.
Deanna: You are welcome, and I'm, I'm so glad that you and I are talking today because here on CosmoFactory we have had several conversations about the business of fragrance, about the science and development of fragrance. But you have a very particular outlook on the category. And what I mean when I say that is that.
Your professional experience in combination with what I would describe as a, a very genuine curiosity and sense for analysis makes your contribution to the industry quite distinctive. Uh, if you would just start off by telling us about your background and what you're doing now in fragrance, I think we'll have a fuller sense of your perspective on the topic.
Miranda: I have been in this beautiful, fabulous, exciting, glamorous industry of fragrance for almost 30 years now. Um, I started out on the client side in new product development and Avon products in the nineties. Um, then subsequently discovered the. Exciting world of [00:02:00] fragrance houses. I have worked for three of the biggest fragrance houses and for the last three years have been running, uh, punk champagne.
Uh, my business partner and I are running a multi-sensory marketing and revenue growth consultancy, and we are, uh, focusing on the intersection between. Fine art and music and fragrance and flavors and retail. the reason I wanted to engage with you today and with cosmoprof is because we've been taking really a, a cultural anthropology approach to understanding.
How consumers are interacting specifically with fragrance. Um, and the reason to lean into cultural anthropology is that there are, there's some real limitations to what, um, consumer insights can drag out of people, either in a focus group setting or, uh, an an an online survey. Um, consumers are very challenged.
To [00:03:00] talk comfortably about fragrance. Um, unless they are very engaged, very educated consumers, they tend not to be confident, uh, in what they're saying about fragrance. Um, and they have a, a difficult time expressing their, their feelings and the underlying meanings, uh, behind what they're doing when they consume fragrance, um, cultural anthropology. Attempt to find the underlying meanings, the underlying uh, belief systems and rituals, uh, built into a culture and, and I'm talking specifically American culture. Um, we tend not to be aware of our underlying belief systems and rituals. It's like an invisible scaffolding and all of consumer cultural is draped over it.
Um, and so, um, as an American, I have to struggle to, um, see the water in which we all are swimming as fish, right? Um, and the goal is to. Look at the language that [00:04:00] people use when they talk about fragrance, um, to use the metaphors that they use when talking about fragrance to unveil what's really going on behind consumption.
that's what we're gonna do today.
Deanna: That's a lot. Um, it, it, and it, it, it reminds me that, that this part of your work in particular really involves the exploration of what consumers expect from a fragrance and why. I'm hoping you can talk about some of what you've discovered.
Miranda: Americans, uh, construct identity in different ways than Europeans do. Um, in the US we believe that you can, you can become. Whoever you decide to be that identity is this, um, is something that you build and something you construct and something you maintain.
Um, Americans use a lot of language around kind of, um, the search for self or the discovery of self. Um, we are, we're sort of a construction project that's never really finished and contrast that with, say, consumers in France or in Italy. [00:05:00] Um, European identity in general. It feels more like something you inhabit, um, than something that you have to build.
Um, it is less a project and more a position you, you sort of occupy in society and you, and you can cultivate your taste or you can refine your sensibility. Um, but Europeans don't have this, this urgent self-improvement project, uh, approach that Americans tend to have. Self isn't broken, it doesn't need fixing.
Um, whereas in the US. We are always talking about constructing ourselves. We, we use phrases like we talk about our personal brand. Um, putting your best self, doing the work, your elevator pitch. fragrance is. And is part of like all consumer goods like, like fashion in particular, um, or like color cosmetics or, or personal care, um, is part of identity infrastructure.
It's how we tell the world who we are and how we reinforce to ourselves, who we believe that we are. Um, and Americans are [00:06:00] much more likely than Europeans to feel that we should choose everything about ourselves kind of from scratch. Um, that is both liberating, uh, and also exhausting.
Deanna: This link between someone's identity and fragrance that you're describing is not really a new concept in fragrance or perfume. For, for years we've talked about, um, the signature scent, right? Someone would consistently wear the same scent for years, even a, a lifetime. The idea being that this scent was unmistakably you.
Uh, more recently we've seen the fragrance wardrobe trend, right? Uh, you mentioned fashion with a fragrance. Wardrobe. Consumers choose to express their mood, maybe a particular persona for the day by choosing what scent to wear in, in the, in the very same way they would choose an outfit. Um, can you say more about the understanding you've shared about.
Identity and what that then means in terms of consumer expectations about [00:07:00] fragrance,
Miranda: Sure. Americans are much more likely than other nationalities to have large collections of fragrance. And you see this on fragrance talk. You see it on YouTube, you see it in all of the engagement, uh, on, on consumer platforms where people are talking about it. Americans brag about how many fragrances they have.
Deanna: It's very much how they buy.
Miranda: Exactly. And a lot of that is the way that we as American marketers are talking to American consumers, right? Um, uh, you'll have a Black Friday sale and where you can stock up on all of your, whatever your, your, your fragrance mist or your candles or your personal care. Um, we are, uh, the, the, the kings and queens of the, the gift with purchase, right?
Get people to buy more stuff. Um, Americans. Collect things. Um, and part of that has to do with, um, the need to construct different identities and in different contexts. US is a really, a very diverse country, right? People come from all [00:08:00] over the world. We, um, uh, our communities are very fluid. We move around a lot.
We don't have a lot of. Shared understanding or history or unspoken rules in the same way that Europeans, um, might have an awful lot of context clues about who you are and where you're from. They can place you right through your accent or your neighborhood, or your family name or, or your style choices, um, or lots of very understood, embedded implicit messages about who you are.
Whereas in the US, since we believe that we are. Constructing our identity. Um, and since we move around a lot and since we are coming together from all, from all different cultures and different backgrounds, um, we need to explicitly communicate, um, who we are. Um, we are always potentially among people, um, who can't read us who, who can't, who don't, who don't know who we are and what we're about.
Um, [00:09:00] so in the US. The self is actively constructed and reconstructed and rigorously maintained, um, because we can't rely on context clues to kind of do the interpretive work and the maintenance work, um, among
Deanna: I guess I wanna jump in and ask how then does the fragrance do that work? What, what's required of a fragrance for the, the consumer to feel that they're inhabiting a, a fuller identity? That they're, that they're sharing that information with their neighbor through scent. What's, what's going on? I.
Miranda: Part of. Why Americans wear fragrance is to get responses from other people, right? Oh, you smell good, or, oh, I recognize what you're wearing. Um, we are much more concerned with outer feedback from other people, um, than other countries are. Um, other nationalities will, will wear fragrance for themself or, or to feel good, um, or, or because, um, it's just part of a grooming ritual.
Um, Americans are much more likely to, uh, [00:10:00] expect. Feedback from other people, um, or, or, or if they don't get it to think that they've chosen the wrong fragrance. Um, we're very, very concerned about, uh, conveying the wrong scent impression, right? We're concerned that we're wearing too much fragrance. We're concerned that, um, we're not conveying good taste.
Um, we're concerned that we smell cheap. Cheap is such a, a funny, funny word in fragrance research. Um, I think. Very few regular consumers. Actually know what the cost of a perfume in the bottle is, right? What the value of those materials are. Some of the best selling fragrances in this country are not made with the most costly ingredients.
Um, what is popular and what is safe and what is loved is not consistently the same as what is, um, uh, you know, expensive in terms of, of ingredients. Um. Usually when we say that something [00:11:00] smells cheap, what we're saying is I don't like it. It doesn't smell like me, or it doesn't smell like my community of people.
Um, Americans use cheap. To describe fragrance in much the same way. Uh, there was an anthropological study done about 20 years ago on, um, college age women, um, and women from different peer groups would describe, um, other girls as slutty. And slutty had nothing to do with what these women were doing sexually or otherwise.
Um, it, it almost had nothing to do even with their apparel. What these girls were saying was, um, that's not me.
Deanna: Right. They're
Miranda: other, I'm othering this other group. And, and Americans do that with cheap when we talk about. Fragrance. Um, people who love, um, uh, youthful, juicy, fruity, sweet and fluffy scents will describe something as cheap if it smells, um, uh, powdery or elder tic or old ladyish, um, when in fact what they're just responding to is, it doesn't smell like something I would wear.
Right. Um. [00:12:00] So we have an awful lot of anxiety about what we're conveying with our fragrance. Um, a lot of the marketing messages around fragrance in the US are, oh, it's office appropriate. Right. You can wear this to work or, um, we have all this messaging around, um, what, what pregnant and nursing mothers should or should not wear, right?
Oh, no, you don't wanna, cause, uh, your, your, your baby won't know who you are if you're wearing fragrance. Um, or, or, or you should, or you should not wear fragrance or when you go to the gym because either. That's a non fragrance context. Um, where only some fragrances are, I, I don't know. I put on fragrance to go to the gym.
I try not to wear so much of it that I'm gonna offend people, but we, we have this, this sort of cultural anxiety, um. And a lot of that I think comes from, from the way that young people wear fragrance. Um, particularly wearing a lot of fragrance to hide something else. Uh, either to hide anxiety around body odor, or maybe to hide the fact that [00:13:00] they were just smoking weed or, um, you know, it, it is.
A worse offense in the US to wear fragrance, to cover up a bad smell than it is to wear, uh, to no fragrance and to smell like nothing at all. Right?
Deanna: You said something earlier I, I wanna follow up on, and that is this idea of expecting a, a response from someone else or this sense that, am I wearing too much fragrance? Am I not wearing enough? Am I wearing it for myself or am I wearing it for that social response? It seems to me that that would, um, influence the durability of a fragrance, right?
Like maybe. Is this a fragrance that I put on in the morning and reapply, you know, midday or before I go out for drinks? Like, do, does Americans, Americans have a, um, absolutely. We have a kind of a set it and forget it mentality here. We, we wanna buy a product and have it just work. Um, and you [00:14:00] see that across all kinds of product categories, right? My, my deodorant claims to have 48 hour odor protection. I don't generally go 48 hours without showering, right?
Miranda: Um, but our color cosmetics too. You've got, um, eight hour promises on your lips. Stick or a 12 hour promise on your mascara or however many hours your, you know, your mouthwash promises to, to be killing bacteria. we're, we've borrowed some expectations from other categories that are then applied to fragrance, um, and. There's this idea, at least in the US, that you should put fragrance on in the morning and not have to think about it again for the rest of the day. That it should be reinforcing, um, messages about who you are, such as, uh, uh, I don't know.
I'm, I'm a boss, I'm a professional, or I am, I am sweet, gentle, and romantic, or I am. Uh, I'm sophisticated and elegant, or I am, uh, playful and fun, or I am just clean and safe. We want those messages to be conveyed all day long, [00:15:00] not only to other people, but also back to ourselves. We want fragrance to do the job of, uh, conveying and supporting identity
Deanna: That's interesting, that reflexive piece of it, right? You're not just communicating outward, but it's a reminder to yourself. It's almost an inspiration to yourself. If you can smell it in the afternoon, you. Remember, I am clean and fresh.
Miranda: Or I put this on this morning as my armor and my finishing gesture before I left the house to make me feel confident. And if I smell it again, I should remind myself to stand up a little straighter or, um, speak with a little more, uh, more confidence in my voice. Um,
Deanna: Be that identity that you're creating as an, uh, as, yeah, as you've described.
Miranda: Um, and, and Europeans will tend to, to reapply, uh, fragrance throughout the day.
Um. As a gesture of, of, of self-respect or of pleasure, um, whereas Americans are, have to be kind of [00:16:00] reminded to do it. I think the um. advent of body mist, um, kind of change the gesture, right? It's a lower level of fragrance, it's a portable plastic bottle. You're not gonna break. It's a lower price point, so you don't feel bad about using it up or spraying a lot of it.
Um, so we are seeing some, um, obviously changes in habits and gestures, um, but as a general rule, Americans expect that you should put it on in the morning and be able to smell it eight hours later. Uh, and we're the only people in the world who are that adamant. About performance. Um, and that's about maintaining identity because we are less secure, uh, culturally and we need to keep maintaining and conveying identity sig uh, signals throughout the day. Um. I think of fragrance also, uh, the way that Americans use it to transition between different roles that we play. So, uh, [00:17:00] who you are at home versus outside the home. Um, or when you leave work, you can change fragrances, whether you're going to the gym or out for the evening. Um, this perception that you are now a different self and that you need to, uh, to reinforce that self, uh, in a different way.
Deanna: Yeah, so interesting. And I, I do have a couple more questions for you. First though, let me encourage anyone interested in fragrance to visit the fragrances and ingredient zone on the Cosmo Pack Show floor at cosmoprof Worldwide Bologna later this month.
Of course, Cosmo Pack is where the cosmetic industry's entire supply chain shows up with the latest and most in demand innovations and services. I will be there and I hope if you work in our industry, and you're listening now that you'll be at Cosmo Pac as well. The next question that I have for you, Miranda, maybe adds some nuance to what we were saying, uh, just a moment ago.
I'm curious if there's, um, a way that we can see fragrance makers [00:18:00] responding. Are, are, are brands starting to see that the consumer wants something maybe that's not in the market and they are going to then create this for retail or, or there examples of of where that's been done in the past that, that figure into this conversation.
Miranda: I think, uh, fragrance dupes have never been more relevant or more important, uh, to market growth and to. Consumer satisfaction than they are right now. And dupes are nothing new in fragrance, uh, nor in other categories. You know, the, the, the, the ancient Romans copied statues that were made by the ancient Greeks because there was only one original.
And, and, and the act of copying something both, um, taught new artisans how to. Had to work their craft, but also there was a lot of demand for Es and there's no shame in a dupe. You can go to the Metropolitan Museum on Fifth Avenue in New York City, uh, and and see a statue of Aphrodite that is a Roman copy of a Greek original.
[00:19:00] actually reinforce different kinds. Of identity, and you can see this in, uh, I think FRA fragrance talk and YouTube are probably the best, the best places to see this in action. There are people who collect Es. And we'll tell you what they are. If you, if you love this $400 fragrance, boy have I got a list of, uh, of, of alternatives for you and the person conveying this information, um, may feel smart.
Right. They may, they may be saying, um, um, I'm, I'm, I'm clever. I'm saving money. I'm conveying to you my inside information that these fragrances are just as good and you don't need to spend that much money, um, and position themselves as smart. Um, alternatively, uh, someone talking about es um, might say, um, uh, I'm, I'm a working mom.
I'm gotta, I've gotta run a household. Uh, I'm thrifty, I'm, I'm not, I, I'm, I'm. Um, [00:20:00] responsible and I'm gonna intentionally funnel my, my income into my family, not into something that I don't need to spend this much money on. So, so the first people were smarter. These group, these people are more responsible.
Um. There are people, um, who take delight in saying, um, um, Hey, it's, it's just as good. It's got the same notes. Um, uh, it, it's a perfectly acceptable thing for me to wear, um, until I can afford to buy the real one, right? There's this, um, this identity that I'm aspiring to the real one and I'm working my way toward it.
Um, SOEs can, can reinforce all of those identities. I'm gonna draw a parallel between something that happens in music and something that happens in
Deanna: Yeah.
Miranda: Um, in music, there may be. A chord progression. Um, in fact, Western pop music, there's a chord progression of, um, that that appears over and over again in many, many [00:21:00] songs. And you would never mistake these songs for each other, but you could probably mash them up, you could sing them on top of each other, Right. So, uh, in the Q of C that would translate into a C, uh, F Major, a minor. That chord progression appears in hundreds of songs across, across popular music. Um, if you, if you want a really amusing deep dive on it, go on YouTube and look for an Australian humor rock band called Axis of Awesome.
Um, they've got a whole six minute shtick where they match up every I, I don't know. 40 different songs that all have this exact same chord progression. That chord progression has cultural currency. People like to hear it. And I think that big new fragrances that inspire a lot of knockoffs, I shouldn't say knockoffs, they inspire a lot of imitators or es they've, they've come up with a new chord progression that really [00:22:00] resonates for people and.
You wouldn't, um, you know, you wouldn't mistake, um, lady Gaga's paparazzi for, um, um, men at Works. Uh, down under, but those do have the same chord progression. And in the same way, I think, uh, some of the, the influencers talking about ES will say, well, this is really similar to this original one, but it's got a little more citrus, or it's a little sweeter, or it's a little softer, or something like that.
They will point out the differences. Um, so I I a blockbuster, really expensive fragrance moves the needle. And inspires es in the same way that a a, a blockbuster chord progression, um, will, will, will inspire a lot of of different songs that are a twist on the same basic idea.
Deanna: Sure. No, that makes very good sense. And [00:23:00] um, I do wanna ask one more question. I'm not sure if we really have time, but I'm thinking about, uh, the way that luxury perfume houses, the companies that make big name fragrances regularly harmonize their formula for the global market. But what you've been talking about are very regionally specific consumer expectations.
I guess I'm wondering, do those consumer expectations that we've been discussing, are they going to impact then how fragrance is made and marketed around the world?
Miranda: What's interesting is if you look at the. Top selling fragrances, um, in different countries. There we always have some regionality, right? Bath and Body Works fragrances in the US way out, sell any true designer department store fragrance, um, in units and in dollars. Um, but if you go look at the top sellers in France, they're mostly French top sellers in Spain are mostly, they're, uh, Spanish brands are like, we have regional preferences and some of that is fact.
Um, I think some of it is just national [00:24:00] pride. Um, and it may also be distribution, right? Um, so, um, while there are some fragrances that are global successes, um, and, and really top sellers, um, I, I don't think we will ever not have some. Regional differences. The, the US relative to Western Europe is very fruity and very sweet, and to, uh, some of my European colleagues, America tends to smell juvenile, um, because that's how they interpret those notes.
Um. I smell differences in construction between fragrances coming out of Western Europe and the US. So, um, French fragrances in particular relative to American scents tend to be, um, the FRA fragrances are more. The French ones are more, uh, more opaque, more compact. Um, to make them American, you kind of gotta pull them apart and, and, and let some air and some light come through them.
You could take the exact same [00:25:00] ingredients and just build it differently. Uh, 'cause in America we like things that are opened up and sheared out and, and whatever, sparkling and aerated. Um, I'm not sure I answered the question.
Deanna: No, that it's all very cool information though, and I, and I have to say, Miranda, you have been so kind, uh, to share your time and your knowledge with us today. I thank you for being my guest on CosmoFactory.
Miranda: Oh, Deanna, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for, uh, bringing me on and letting me, letting me share my passion.
[00:26:00]