COSMOFACTORY

Deanna: [00:00:00] This episode is about forestry and sustainability. It's about using natural resources efficiently. It's about a complex natural polymer called lignin, and it's about the science of sun care boosting ingredients. On today's episode of the Cosmo Factory Podcast, I am speaking with Daniella Arango, chief Product Officer and co-founder of Pu Daniella. Welcome to Cosmo Factory.
Daniela: Hi Dina. Thank you so much for having [00:01:00] us.
Deanna: Yeah, you're welcome. I'm, I'm very happy for the chance to talk with you today. So, um, it, it seems to me, and I, I think this is probably true for most people working in the cosmetics industry, that there are many perfectly valid ways to approach environmental sustainability. And before we were, we were recording our episode, Daniella, you were telling me something interesting that's happening with product positioning, uh, which you noticed, I believe, in consumer retail.
Can you, can you share that story with us?
Daniela: Sure. So recently there was a lot. Launch in Korea, actually the first one, using our ingredient. And they're actually basing or putting the whole concept around forestry. So I believe they identified ingredients coming from forestry to, to give this hint or this sense of freshness and purity to the final product.
And at the same time, the inherent functionality that comes from, from these natural ingredients.
Deanna: Okay. Super cool. Yeah, and I, I wanted you to show. Of that because I think it's indicative of an important trend that I've [00:02:00] been watching. Uh, of course there are many trends worth following in the cosmetic ingredient sector just now, just share a few examples. It's, it's common, uh, to hear news just now, particularly of biotech fats and oils. Uh, whether it's companies launching ingredients, developing new production technologies, scaling up processes, these alternative lipids are very much making headlines right now. Uh, listeners might recall my interview with Shara Tku.
Of C 16 Biosciences, a company that makes an alternative to palm oil. Uh, another sort of ingredient that's certainly making headlines now are those sourced from seaweed and other marine life. Seaweed is everywhere. And, and here I would mention an interview I had with Macro Oceans, um, and then staying in the water, uh, I would, I would point to my interview with the avant co-founder, Carrie Chan and her company, which has developed the Zein platform using.
Fish cell culture technology to make skincare ingredients. Um, but regular Cosmo factory listeners may have already noticed that forest derived ingredients [00:03:00] are absolutely common now, um, and quite innovative in our industry. I'm thinking particularly of Cosmo factory episodes featuring UTA Scientific. A company that works with microbes found in forest soil.
Uh, I got to speak with Rubis Co Biotechnology. Uh, they're using plant cell culture tech, and they actually start with, uh, cells that are gathered from twigs, that have fallen from, uh, what I would describe as a quite remarkable tree growing in Chile. Um, and the company called P two Sciences, uh, makes a liquid polymer from Upcycled Pine Tree oil.
Uh, they were interviewed here on Cosmo Factory as well. Um, and we're starting our conversation today with trees, uh, because as you suggested with your, your comment about the, um, the Korean consumer marketplace lignin the raw material that you work with, Daniela is a polymer that has left over from industrial forestry processes, and, and in the last few years, lignin itself has been showing up in the cosmetic and personal care ingredient marketplace.
If you would please remind us what [00:04:00] lignin is exactly.
Daniela: Right. Um, so you, you're. Completely, completely in the right track. Uh, lignin is the second most abundant natural polymer just after cellulose, uh, and is a big component of the plant cell wall. So overall, it's giving plants structure and functionality, mainly protection, protection against uv, radiation, against microbial attacks and oxidation stress.
And right now the kind of industries, um, that will deal with lignin, um, will be pulp and paper and bio refineries. So mainly those that focus on cellose for purposes such as paper or bioethanol. And then the lignin is a side stream that they leave behind. Um, it can also be used for low value applications such as energy, but then we do want to see it, uh, become a more interesting ingredient and material.
Deanna: No, that's perfect. And you know, when we talk about something like [00:05:00] this, I often hear the word biomass used, and I, I, I think that that word, it sounds very, I don't know ambiguous or general, but from what I understand it and from what I've just heard you say, even this. Concept of a biomass says something about the source of a material, but also about what that material is used for.
I think biomass is always organic. Plants, trees, animals. And then you mentioned all of the, all of the biomass uses, right? Energy production, feedstock. Um, I think some companies use it for like soil enrichment. Um, but do you have any notes on biomass?
Daniela: Correct. I mean, uh. I think renewability will be the key word that we can link here, especially now that we're talking about sustainability, right? So I will refer to biomass to anything that is actually growing out of earth naturally. So it's not being synthesized anywhere by human. Um. Hand. Um, so yes, you're right.
It can be derived from plants, it can be derived from animals. Uh, in our [00:06:00] case we're a hundred percent plant-based ingredients. So li is is inherent to, to plant growth.
Deanna: Yeah, no, that's perfect. And go ahead. You wanted to say something further?
Daniela: No, that like, of course, like we can always optimize and, and, and work a little bit more on, on the way we use this, we use biomasses that are already available there.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. And so I, I'm, I'm curious about the traceability of the biomass, the, the lignin that you're working with. Are you able to share with your customer the original source of the lignin lignin, or is this, or is this, um, is it just sort of, you know, that it's from, you know, a plants and forestry and what have you?
Daniela: We do have visibility all the way to the plant, uh, that the lignin is initially being extracted from. Uh, just to give you an example, we have two types of lignins. One that is derived from birch, so coming from forestry from this one, we know exactly from which forest. In the north of Europe, uh, the [00:07:00] lignan is coming and the second variant is actually coming from wheat straw.
So we also know exactly from which fields, uh, this wheat is being yeah, used in agricultural purposes, and then the straw that is a residue where it's coming from. So we have this ability from that source all the way to the means of transportation that are being used to, to bring it and deliver it to Hamburg, where we do transform it in the final ingredient.
Deanna: Fantastic. No, that's wonderful. And I, I know, um, manufacturers and brands are very excited to hear about traceable supply chain details, so I thank you for sharing that. And you mentioned rescuing waste, uh, in your comments just there. And I, I think that ties back to environmental sustainability. Do you wanna say anything further about.
The sustainability of the ingredient or, or the processes that you have built into your company.
Daniela: Sure. Um, and I do appreciate your comment at the beginning of the podcast, uh, talking about there are so many ways to, to actually deliver and, and help the whole sustainability concept. Right. Um, and our main driver, I will be [00:08:00] i'll, I will say, is really taking advantage of that biomass that is already there.
And mistakenly treated as a re right, because if there's still value there, then we don't dare to say so much of for residue. So starting from forestry, for example, not everything from the lock can be utilized. So you have branches, you have tweaks, you have a. Little saw does and everything, um, that still has value in it, it still has cellulose.
Uh, and then that's kind of the first residue we see in the supply chain that is then being transferred to by refineries where they have ex specific extraction processes, uh, to, to actually get or obtain the cellulose and separate it from the liening. So that's the second part of the supply chain in which liening.
It's is seen as a byproduct of, of, or a residue. Uh, and that's where we are sourcing. So we directly source from the bio refineries and do the final like value addition or transformation.
Deanna: [00:09:00] Mm-hmm. And can you share some notes on how, what your process is? I know you can't share, you know, proprietary methods, but what are you doing to turn this, this biomass, this lignin into a personal care ingredient?
Daniela: Um, so I would like to just draw that attention to the fact that Liga is a very interesting. Polymer complex and problematic, right? So it has a lot of potential. So why has no one done it before? It's tricky to handle. So I think our main contribution is how to standardize this polymer, right? Uh, so we do have a pre-treatment such that we can standardize, let's say this raw bios that gets into our, our factory, and then our main value edition is.
Particle formation. So we do have a physical process where we can fine tune, shape, size, uh, and surface for certain applications while also removing some of the other that is naturally coming, um, with the liening
Deanna: No, that makes sense. That [00:10:00] makes sense. You know, and as, as you've mentioned, and I think I probably said it as well, this is a fairly new, uh, ingredient or raw material for the cosmetic marketplace. Um, and I, I. Think you mentioned that there are UV absorption properties. Antioxidant antimicrobial properties.
Can you share more details about those and then what the applications for malignant in cosmetics and personal care products is?
Daniela: Um, so is inherently functional thanks to. Is, um, chemical structure, I will say. So it, it has, let's say, the properties necessary to deliver protection from UV rays. Um, antioxidation like stabilizing, um, free radicals that are out there. Uh, so those are the two main properties that we focus on, and it has some other benefits, uh, like it has a natural color.
Uh, in our case, the particles we produce, they have added benefits, uh, for the sensor l. For the appearance of your [00:11:00] formulation. So we see it adding value for cosmetics as a multifunctional that can help you deliver SPF higher SPF values, uh, or skinny five makeups, for example. So making it more functional.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. No, that makes good sense. And certainly some of our listeners here on Cosmo Factory are well versed in sun care technologies. But for those of us, uh, still learning about photobiology, can you help us understand more fully, um, how your LinkedIn ingredient actually functions as an SPF booster? I'm wondering how it interacts with light.
Can you help us understand that story a bit?
Daniela: So there are a couple of mechanisms of action, as we call them, behind, behind ing. Uh, in our case, we have microparticles, so I think the most evident one will be light scattering. So it basically helps. Uh, deviate the, the light rates that are coming into your skin such that they can interact better with the UV filter or just that they will [00:12:00] kind of ricochet and directly not interact, uh, with your skin.
I think that's kind of the physical, uh, factor there. Then it also has some synergetic effect with the chemical filter that also have some pheno rings to it. So we already mentioned that it has a complex structure, but complexity normally means. Functionality. Right? Um, so there's this energetic effect as well, plus the antioxidant capacity.
So the antioxidant, I will dare to say, is the most important one. Helping stabilize different kinds of UV filters, both chemical and mineral.
Deanna: Uhhuh and, uh, forgive me again, I, sun care science is not my specialty, but is this something that, um, cosmetic formulators might use to replace other stabilizing ingredients or is it, um, used in, in sort of tandem with something that they're already formulating with?
Daniela: Well, the lignin derived ingredient that, that we've created is quite powerful. So we're definitely, uh, [00:13:00] offering directly the, the stabilization power, uh, for your UV filter system. So I will dare to say that it can replace, uh, some of the, maybe if you have a very. Big combination of things, uh, to make your, your UV filter system work.
Uh, then with, with the li base ingredient, you can definitely solve that issue at once, um, because of, of its, yeah. Properties that, that we just mentioned. What it cannot directly replace a hundred percent is a UV filter. So lignin is not intended to be a UV filter, and I think this is worth it to clarify to all the audience, right?
Especially in the US where like things are so sensitive around UV filter. So this is an SPF booster. Um, it helps in so many ways, mechanisms as, as we this. Uh, but it's not intended to, to replace. It helps you to reduce the complexity of your UV filter system, so you can use less of the UV filter because there is a [00:14:00] boosting, but it always goes together.
Deanna: Mm. Mm-hmm. No, I appreciate that. Thank you. Um, and something else, I know brands as well as suppliers encounter when working with ingredients or even packaging materials from natural sources, um, is this issue of color and texture in their product compared to what has for a long time been an industry norm.
Um, and I, I would say this, I would describe this norm really as a practice of linking the color white with safety, cleanliness, and trustworthiness. We, we see this, I think, as. Especially in, um, uh, like facial moisturizers. Um, but it, it certainly, like I said, shows up with other products, with packaging materials, um, and, and equates to texture as well.
And certainly natural sources are a little bit, um, more interesting, I should say than, than, than pure white. Um. I believe your lignol pure ingredient does have a more natural color. I'm wondering how you're communicating quality, safety, purity of your ingredient, and, and if you see your company playing any role in, in helping our industry transition away from [00:15:00] this notion of whiteness.
Daniela: Yeah. Okay. So I'll address the color issue first, and then we can talk about how we, we talk a little bit with the public around quality and purity. Um, so there's definitely a bias, right? Like this, there is a misconception, uh, and as you mentioned it not only in cosmetics, but like packaging and materials in general, that wide or transparent is somehow more natural or pure.
Uh, however, it is often more often than none the contrary because you have to bleach and you have to do some like very, um, stringent chemical treatments to, to achieve such whiteness or transparency, right? Um, and another thing that I always like to, to bring up is the fact that functionality in nature.
That's half color. Um, so if you think about the vegetables you eat, because they have kerins and they have all of these good things. Antioxidants, we're talking about orange, carrots, we're talking about green lips. We're talking [00:16:00] about so many colorful things that you know are good for you. And I think we could start using this as a guide for us to comprehend that color.
Um, not necessarily is giving you a bad sign. More often the contrary. Right. Um, and I think especially with packaging, packaging is a great example that you brought up. Um, people now associate this like kind of brownish, more natural, more resembling to, to trees as being safer to use and probably having a less of a harsh, um, process behind.
So the same happens with cosmetics. I think people are standing, um, sorry. Um. Starting to realize, um, that this diversity in colors doesn't necessarily mean that it's gonna have an impact on how you look. Like many of the moisturizing creams or many of the solar protection creams that do have a tin to it once you apply them on, is really not something that is modifying your appearance.
It's just that the formula, per se, was not like [00:17:00] dramatically modified and fine tuned to look wide or transparent, right? Um, so I think people are starting to, to open up to that. Regarding how we talk about purity or communicate quality, I will dare to say the main thing we do is educating, just talking about it, right?
Like we're doing here in this wonderful space. Um, people need to learn about new ingredients, right? And, and normally people are afraid of those things they don't know about. Uh, and so I think big part of our mission and vision at Lepere is that we can become ambassadors. For Lightning and Pioneers. So we do enjoy talking a lot about, okay, what is lightning, where it's coming from and participating in different kinds of events, uh, and transparency or traceability as we discussed before, is also very important.
And how we execute that is also just disclosing and like publishing the, the results that we have. Sending samples to our clients and potential clients as soon as we can so that they can also just leave [00:18:00] the real experience of working with this ingredient. So we, we believe we don't have time to lose. So if, if people will dare to try it, they, they want to, to have it in their hands, then that's something we can provide
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's, um, let's pretend that we can do that here on the podcast. Just again, just to get acquainted with, with the idea of, of lignin as a material. Um, I think you mentioned something about adjusting the odor of it earlier. Um, can you say anything about, is this liquid, is this powder, do you have a recommended percentage formulation?
Help us think about details. Cosmetic formulators like to know about.
Daniela: Sure. Um, so maybe we go one step back, raw ing, uh, how we receive it. You can imagine it as the coffee puck that you get after making yourself an espresso, like a little cake. Uh, it's a very undefined, amorphous, uh, kind of mass that, that we receive with a particular smell. The smell mainly depends on the plant of origin, right?
So we, [00:19:00] we already mentioned that liening can be present in different types of plants, so it will have some variability. If, if it is coming from a specific tree or, or if it is coming from a cereal or a grass. Um, so that's the raw material. But after we do our magic and science behind the whole thing, you will have some like very fine powder, um, that you can imagine as a cocoa powder.
Um, something like this. The smell, um, the ones that are derived from hardwoods or like this kind of. Tall trees, uh, they do have a woody smell to it. Depending on the extraction process, it can be a little bit more smoky or it can still be a little bit more her. Um, and those coming from grasses or from the wheat straw, they also tend to be a little bit more aromatic.
So this is the kind of a smell, uh, you can have in mind. So if you're walking through the forest or if you just make yourself a tea, um, this is some of the smells that you can expect.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. And do you, [00:20:00] do you distinguish between the source in terms of the ingredient that you pass along to your customers, or do you blend lignin from various sources, um, to create your ingredient?
Daniela: Currently we're not doing blendings. Currently, we have two separate ingredients. Uh, this is mainly for regulatory purposes, so it's easier to, to have different, like plants of origins ending in different, uh, product, um, brands or, or names.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. And is there anything else I should have asked you about sun care or light protection here that that might be particularly interesting to learn about? Lignin.
Daniela: I think lignin also offers great value to deal with, uh, something very annoying that limits consumers to actually use, uh, some of the formulas, especially the mineral ones, which is the white cast. Right? And then here, lignin does have a natural color, which does not. Offer coverage. Why is this important?
So we do have a nice thing to [00:21:00] add, but it's not gonna cover your skin giving you a strong color. Um, so you can also think of the lignin based ingredient as a, um, yeah, as your ally to overcome this issue while giving you the boost and the antioxidation. So there are so many things that. Prevent, I will say the consumer to really stick in and using the SPF, uh, and we have to be real appearance is, is one of the main ones, right?
Uh, if it is an oily finished or if it is looking way too wide or like a ghost effect. Um, so that's also something helpful for an SPF booster to have, right? If it can already help you, um, with sensory and the perception of the client.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. No, that's fantastic. Daniella. This has been such an informative, and I, I have to say, a fun tour from Forest to Ingredient. I thank you for being my guest today on the Cosmo Factory Podcast.
Daniela: I'm glad to hear you say that. I hope like many more will join us in this journey from forest to final product.
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