COSMOFACTORY

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Deanna: Welcome to CosmoFactory. A podcast by Cosmoprof Worldwide Bologna, where we explore the entire cosmetics, personal care, and fragrance industry supply chain. I'm your host, Deanna Utroske. And here at CosmoFactory, we look beyond the trends to discover the ideas, initiatives, and innovations that are truly advancing beauty.
Deanna: Let's get started.
Deanna: In this episode, we're talking about microbiome beauty, about prebiotics, probiotics, and postbiotics. We're also talking about repurposing ingredients, supplements, finding supply chain partners, and challenges and opportunities for suppliers. Joining me today on the Cosmo Factory podcast is Marie Drago, founder and chief creative officer of Gallinée.
Deanna: Welcome. so much for joining me on the podcast today. Why don't you [00:01:00] just give us a little bit about your background before we dive in? Uh, yes, of course. So
Marie: as you can hear, I am French. Uh, I am originally a doctor in pharmacy, uh, in industrial pharmacy. And, uh, I always worked in beauty, mostly in skincare in London and in Ireland.
Marie: And. 10 years ago, actually, I created a brand called Gallinée Microbiome Skincare that was acquired by Shiseido, uh, at the back end of 2022.
Deanna: Excellent. Fantastic. So the central concept of the CosmoFactory podcast, as, as listeners know, is ideas to innovation. And I think it's a great place to start. Gallinée is an excellent example of this concept as your intro has just suggested.
Deanna: Tell us a little bit about the idea for this brand and how you, how you made it happen.
Marie: So I always wanted to create a beauty brand as long as I can remember. But, uh, after 20 years in beauty, I always found beauty quite cyclical. You know, like you've got a new, uh, [00:02:00] ingredient every year or so, but the base of the way you formulate a product doesn't change.
Marie: And then I got diagnosed with a really rare disease that was linked to my gut microbiome. And so I got to learn about the microbiome back in 2014 when, uh, no one was talking about it. I, I. Didn't even had learned about it, um, in the, at the university. So I discovered the microbiome. For me, it was revelatory and it made me really change my view of what it means to be human.
Marie: And everyone was quite interested for health and for commercial applications. On the gut microbiome, but because I had experience in beauty, I thought, what if you started to make products that would help your skin microbiome? Because actually you've got bacteria on your skin and they deserve help too.
Marie: So I started to look at some literature, scientific literature, couldn't really find anything at the time. There was five published article on the skin microbiome in 2014. [00:03:00] And so because of that, I went back to my uni. Uh, in France and I passed my pharmacy thesis on skin microbiome and I patented my thesis.
Marie: Uh, and then I went to see some friends and family, raised a bit of money and use my thesis to create Gallinée’s formulations. And we were able to launch the brand with five product originally on the 1st of April, 2016.
Deanna: Yeah, no, that's amazing. And I think I got to first write about you. Within a year of your brand launch, I think my first article was in 2017 when I was writing for Cosmetics Design.
Deanna: And then if I'm correct, we got to meet finally, uh, in about 2019. Yeah. Yeah. Which was really wonderful. And I have to say, I mean, I've gotten to Cover news of a lot of independent brands and startups over the years, but, um, it's so it's unfair almost because it's very fun and rewarding for me to sit on this side and watch, um, how much, you know, how hard you have worked and, and everything that [00:04:00] you've accomplished.
Deanna: I think one of the amazing things about independent brands, um, are the founders that really persevere. Um, I'm sure there have been many moments when you easily could have chosen to stop, um, but you kept the brand going.
Marie: Yeah, that's something I learned. It was my first company. So I learned entrepreneurship.
Marie: I, as I was going along, uh, anything that can go wrong will go wrong, especially in production or logistics ever always. Uh, so yeah, great is a big part of it. But after that, you've got. A lot of highs and a lot of lows in the same day, but as long as the highs are higher than the low, you're fine.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah.
Deanna: No. And as you have suggested, um, moving an idea, uh, along to innovation is pretty much impossible in beauty without partners along the supply chain. I think you have a very interesting approach to, um, discovering or sourcing new ingredients. Will you tell us about that? Uh, yes, of course. So
Marie: sourcing new ingredients for me has always been a nice challenge because when I started the [00:05:00] brand, I was struggling a little bit to find the ingredient I wanted based on science literature to put in my products.
Marie: I wanted probiotics, I wanted prebiotics and I wanted postbiotics. Um, prebiotics, there was a few on the market and I was able to discuss and to include them in my products. Postbiotics, I used a lot of lactic acid and I was grateful for, there's a nice, uh, version of lactic acid that you can use because all of our products are geared towards sensitive skin.
Marie: So I needed a bit of technology around that. And then for me, the most interesting one has been prebiotics. So prebiotics, it's a name for a nutrient that will only feed the bacteria you want, only good bacteria. And, uh, At the start when I started, um, there was not a lot of offers on that, uh, for ingredient suppliers, but there was some offers on conditioners in haircare.
Marie: The name is [00:06:00] inulin. It's a molecule that has been used for years as a conditioner in haircare. And actually it's a really good prebiotic. the idea of. repurposing this ingredient and use it in face care, which today I will look at a lot of, uh, formulations and I see it a lot. So it means that it was probably a good idea.
Marie: And with the years, I got either access to interesting new ingredients, either through science literature always, to find, uh, repurposing, uh, existing ingredients for their prebiotic properties. So, for example, polyphenols, now we understand. Standard, really good prebiotics, so you can pick and choose your polyphenols that are probably sold as antioxidants.
Marie: You can use them as prebiotics for the bacteria you want to help on skin. So it's been quite interesting and it was really helpful to be a chemist to be able to do that because you don't have to reinvent everything. Sometime a supplier is okay, retesting one of its ingredients for its prebiotic properties, and so I could include it in my formulas.[00:07:00]
Deanna: Yes, yes. And as you're suggesting there with retesting ingredients, it really suggests that there's an opportunity for suppliers here. Um, it's not uncommon when a new trend or, um, you know, consumer expectation comes along for suppliers to figure out if something in their portfolio is a fit. Are you seeing ingredient makers test for microbiome benefits or?
Deanna: I was talking to one
Marie: this week who says that, uh, yes, they start retesting everything because now testing for microbiome properties has become more available and cheaper and of better quality. And yes, uh, every time you've got an oligosaccharide, for example, Would make sense to test it for prebiotic properties.
Marie: So yeah, you see more and more in like at, um, a trade show last week. I was able every time I asked to say, like, did you try that? Did you test it on microbiome? And a good half of the suppliers had tested it on [00:08:00] microbiome. And that is a little microbiome friendly or a little explanation of why it would be microbiome friendly compared to 0 percent when I started.
Marie: So yeah, a really good progression on that.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. Can you say more about what sort of testing would be useful? Um, I know microbiome friendly is one approach, but there, as you have suggested, um, you know, prebiotic approach as well. Um, if, if you could ask all the suppliers in the world, And to do this testing, what, what would your expectation be?
Marie: That's a really good question because it's still very early days for microbiome testing. For me, I test my finished product in vivo. So today we've got good qPCR tests that allow us to test before and after using the products on two or four weeks. And we can see the results in with real bacteria and we can.
Marie: Show how we can influence the microbiome, uh, for rowing gradients. I don't [00:09:00] think you need to go that far. And actually there's, I've seen some really good tests just on a petri dish. So in vitro. Not even ex vivo, but just in vitro where you show, okay, like maybe I can block the growth of Staphylococcus aureus, but I don't block the growth of Staphylococcus epidermidis.
Marie: That's the big bad guys and the big good guy, uh, on the microbiome. And that's probably all you need to do at least to start. And then after that, if you want to do some cool models to show, uh, to show more, uh, that's totally fine. But honestly, just a Petri dish in vitro, already for me, it's a good start.
Deanna: Excellent. Thank you for that. Um, so we've thought a little bit about ingredients. I know, um, manufacturing can also help us move an idea to innovation. Um, how, how does a brand that, you know, starts as a thesis as an, as an idea, um, move into the manufacturing space? I know it can be quite daunting for some entrepreneurs.
Marie: Uh, yeah, especially as I was, I had [00:10:00] really weird ideas. I wanted to make products that, uh, helped bacteria. I had not a lot of cash and I had very little experience of looking for a player. Mm-Hmm, . Uh, so what I did was to take my little business plan and go to Cosmo proof and, uh, to go and see, uh, contract manufacturers.
Marie: Uh, I had one or two introduction and I know that I wanted to meet some people, but that was a good opportunity for me. Already in 2015 to be able to find my, uh, supplier and my contract manufacturer at Cosmoprof and I'm still working with them today. So it's been a perfect for me.
Deanna: No, that's amazing. I love hearing that.
Deanna: I know, um, the Cosmopack side of the show where the contract manufacturers or packagers and ingredient companies exhibit, I don't want to say it's a secret, but it, it is like, um, it's an excellent place of discovery. So that's a wonderful story. Um, I remember from conversations you and I have had in years past that one of the manufacturing challenges your brand has had is the development of your cleansing bar.
Deanna: If I'm correct, [00:11:00] and you know I'm not a scientist, it's not actually a soap. Can you talk about what it is and how you got it made? Uh,
Marie: so I never developed products. Uh, I had the technical knowledge, but I never did product development before having my company, which means that I had a lot of innocence on some subject.
Marie: And typically I decided that I wanted to do a syndet, so not a soap, but a synthetic detergent, a cleansing bar, uh, that was going to be pH five because your skin is pH five. And on top, I was going to add some lactic acid, uh, because lactic acid is great for the skin. Um, It was super good in the lab. Uh, we started to move to the pilot phase and the people at the manufacturing place were like, Oh, this is the best soap we've ever used in our life.
Marie: And we've been making soap for 60 years. It's amazing. Uh, and then with the pilot badge, I started to send to some influencer and journalists. And they were like, Oh my God, when is this going to be released? It's amazing. Uh, and then when we passed to [00:12:00] production, I realized that you're not really supposed to do a pH five syndate because it becomes something like a non Newtonian fluid and it's stick to the motor.
Marie: So we had a lot of. Interesting industrial challenges. Uh, and we ended up like six months of hell, honestly, but my supplier was so good at trying everything and together we managed to unstick this situation. Uh, so yeah, today I've got a patent, industrial patent on the manufacturing of SIMDET, uh, related like to my problem.
Marie: So it was a lot of pain and I learned a lot more than I wanted to learn about soap manufacturing. Um, but yeah, no, that was. Like as of today, it's one of our best sellers. So you, I needed a lot of grit for not giving up, but, uh, we were really helped by, by all of our network of suppliers. And in the end it was for a good cause because today it's a really good product.
Deanna: Yeah, no, that's amazing. Um, yeah. Super important to persevere when you. When [00:13:00] you know all the information behind why you're creating a product like that, I think that's excellent. Um, let's talk a little bit about packaging as well. I know your brand has made an effort to, um, choose sustainable materials.
Deanna: Can you talk about that and, and some of, um, the challenges or opportunities you're seeing with that material?
Marie: Uh, so yeah, no, that's a good point. Uh, originally I was always very minimalist. So I didn't want it to have secondary packaging if I didn't need to, uh, we had some cellophane, cellophane, but not like I removed it very fast.
Marie: And then, uh, I started to recruit and build a team and my head of product development was younger than me. And she was like, Marie, you're not doing, uh, eco conception. You need to think about that. When you develop a product, you cannot use virgin plastic anymore. Please. And so she was the one that really started to, um, make us think about when we develop, how we should develop.
Marie: So as of today, most of our packaging is either 100 percent [00:14:00] PCR or, uh, at least 70 percent PCR. We use, uh, FSC cardboard, recycled, uh, the Cost is not so much the issue as the supply chain. I think I'm not the only one to say that. Two years ago it was a nightmare sourcing cardboard This year for me it's a nightmare sourcing tubes.
Marie: Um, it's difficult and we need a lot of planning and it's hard when you are a small brand because you need to be really reactive and to be able to have a lot of flexibility with your manufacturing. Uh, but yes, we've got a little bit of a bottleneck on the sourcing of packaging, but probably I'm not the only one having the problem.
Deanna: Yeah, no, it's interesting because it suggests that there is a very strong demand for PCR, which is, I think, quite promising, um, in that it will, you know, encourage recycling, um, or, you know, recycling facilities, um, it, it will, and even perhaps add, um, some financial incentive there that hasn't been there in years past.
Deanna: Um, do you have any ideas, uh, Um, the suppliers [00:15:00] that are able to, you know, help a brand like yours at this point, find the material or create the packaging, what are they doing differently than some of the other suppliers? Can you help us think about that?
Marie: I don't know exactly. Uh, it's true that. It can change and we tend to sometime have to switch suppliers from one year to the other because suddenly they've got massive lead time, uh, that for a reason I don't always understand on some packs.
Marie: So we have a roster of suppliers so that we can, uh, ensure lead time because we are growing really fast and we cannot be stopped by just a tube that we cannot get.
Deanna: Yeah, no, and that makes sense. I'm sure, um, other brands are doing the same thing. It's, it's always good to have multiple options. Excellent.
Deanna: Um, and we had a conversation before this podcast. I always like to check in with guests. Um, and one of the things we talked about a little bit was, supply side services in terms of, um, consumer testing. Um, [00:16:00] is that something, um, tell us when you are looking for that service at what stage in product development or product launch and, and what you're finding.
Marie: Uh, so for testing, we, We're used to work, uh, with our own, uh, well, we got to help a lot from our contract manufacturer. And we were always working with the same people for the normal talks and user trial testing. We added microbiome testing on top, which was interesting, but today like we couple it with our user trial so that we can actually link the clinical data.
Marie: And the microbiome data together, which is really cool. Uh, and then since the integration from, with Shiseido, I have to say that the level went up a lot into what we can test and where, uh, with who we test. Uh, so it's been really. Interesting because we get so much more data, which is incredible. A little bit more budget to, uh, still, uh, I can feel that there [00:17:00] is another bottleneck in the testing and user trial.
Marie: I don't know if it's because we test on specific, uh, skin type. Like we always test on sensitive skin or eczema prone skin or scalp or things that are a bit different. Um, yes, it is the biggest drag at the moment on early time for new product development is the user trial.
Deanna: Yeah, no, that's really interesting.
Deanna: Thank you for sharing that. Um, and you did mention earlier, uh, when we were talking about ingredients, uh, that gallon a skincare works with prebiotics, probiotics, postbiotics. I wonder if you can say a little bit more about the brand's approach to microbiome beauty. I think, I think you told me, um, You've seen some of my writing where I've outlined what I see from brands, um, generally are three different approaches, right?
Deanna: One is microbiome friendly. So kind of completely leave it alone. Another approach I see is, um, supporting the microbiome and some brands, um, are using prebiotics, like you've mentioned for feeding particular [00:18:00] bacteria, um, or different ingredients that, um, provide, um, quorum quenching, right? So sort of, um, preventing, um, bacteria from creating biofilms that we don't want.
Deanna: Um, and still other brands are actually choosing to modify it and adding live bacteria to the human skin. What's the Gallin A approach here?
Marie: So there's two different things, there are things that you can do, uh, and probably you don't want to change the microbiome of people because that's called an infection.
Marie: So you want to be able to support or to balance, but not so much to infect. And then there's what you can claim because microbiome claims are not really. regulated yet. Uh, we are not even sure if the microbiome is an organ of the body or not. Is it part of the human body or not? And there's a lot of difference between the claims that you could do in Europe or in the US.
Marie: So at the moment, the microbiome claims, uh, depend really of [00:19:00] the Take the company that's going to do your testing and they give you a little seal of approval with some terminology that could be support the microbiome, rebalance the microbiome, microbiome friendly, it all depends of the regulatory and how comfortable you feel with these claims.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Excellent. And I know you have a range of product categories. Can you just run through the portfolio very quickly for us?
Uh,
Marie: so we started with, uh, being a face care brand and, uh, we still do most of our business on face care, but very early on, I was quite interested, uh, the fact that your microbiome doesn't stop at your face.
Marie: And so everywhere where there's bacteria, I think we can help. So face, uh, we do. We do also body care, uh, and we've got interesting, uh, skincare brand, but for us work really well. We've got the scalp care range. We've got intimate care product. We've got an oral care range and [00:20:00] the part where I, uh, I'm the most excited about is the inside out beauty.
Marie: Uh, so now there's a good science linking the gut microbiome to the health of the skin, which means that you can launch probiotic supplement, uh, To work on this axis. And so as of today, I think we've got four different supplement using the gut microbiome to help the skin.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. Tell us more about that.
Deanna: Tell us about developing the supplements and what, what the benefits you're claiming there are.
Marie: Uh, so that's another one where I was really lucky that I met a bacteria manufacturer. So instead of doing what a lot of small brands are doing, which is going to see a contract manufacturers that does.
Marie: everything, including probiotics. I work with someone that manufacture or like that grows a bacteria for us for each batch, which I learned that's in supplements is a really interesting field in beauty because you could do so much, but there's also the wild west of It's not really regulated, there's not a lot of claims [00:21:00] that you can do.
Marie: So I think it's really hard for the consumer to recognize quality in a supplement. Uh, but that doesn't mean that, uh, you shouldn't do the best product you can. So for us, we've got bacteria that are grown for us, um, manufactured in very special condition. And then, uh, we also add prebiotics and postbiotics to the formula to get the pre proposed inner capsule, uh, and then, uh, the packaging is really important.
Marie: We need glass bottle, desiccant, like a little seal. So it's quite expensive to make good probiotics, but also thanks to Shiseido research budget, we were also able to test, uh, clinically these supplements with, uh, great results. And it's a really good, uh, on, um, portfolio, but yes, I'm seeing, uh, I was lucky to meet the right person, uh, at the right trade show, uh, and be able to work with them since like, it's probably been 10 years or so.
Deanna: Wow. That's amazing. Thank you for that. That's super cool. Um, and I know one of your supplements has, um, [00:22:00] mood boosting benefits or emotional benefits. Can you tell us, I know, and it is, it is something of a trend, um, in skincare for folks to, um, talk a little bit more, even about the, you know, the psychology or the, um, the emotional effect.
Deanna: Um, and some, some ingredients even topically seem to act directly on, um, some sort of interface between neurons and brain science and what have you. But what have you developed in the supplement space there?
Marie: So yeah, I know that neurocosmetics is a big buzzword at the moment and neurocosmetics for me, I interpret it more as using a typical product and seeing a benefit on the mood.
Marie: So we've got, we launched two products actually. Uh, to, uh, help with stress and its effect on skin. So for the topical product, we've got a serum that is a calming serum that's going to help with redness, sensitive skin, reactivity, uh, and really give you instant relief. But I also developed a supplement based on the gut brain [00:23:00] skin axis, which is, uh, how the gut microbiome can have an effect on the mood and also can have an effect on the skin.
Marie: So we developed a supplement with probiotics and some cool prebiotics, um, to be able to improve it. Test, uh, if you could actually help digestion, which is a local effect mood. And so I think we've got like, um, it's called Kalman microbiome. And, uh, I think we say it's for stressed skin and mind. Claims are always very interesting in this.
Marie: Uh, and yeah, like we've got good scoring on skin results actually. So in four weeks you can take a supplement and see a difference on your skin.
Deanna: That's wonderful. As you've suggested, um, when you were saying manufacturing supplements can be quite challenging, there are all sorts of nuances. And you mentioned, um, you know, live bacteria growing and what have you, um, you've told me before that, um, not only for the supplements, but for your full product range, the expiration date, um, or, you know, sort of shelf life, I [00:24:00] should say of the products, um, affects, I guess, you know, the, the retail experience there.
Deanna: Can you, can you share more about that? Yeah.
Marie: Uh, yeah. So from the start, we decided that, of course, if we wanted to help the microbiomes, that probably meant, uh, having shorter shelf life because we wanted to lower the preservatives level as much as, uh, legally possible. Uh, and interestingly, we had to put an expiry date on PAK, which was never a problem in the pharmacy retail, but it's quite a new thing.
Marie: I feel, uh, in the, uh, Uh, selective retail environment because it means that you've got to track batch number and you've got to try, uh, track expiry date in your warehouse and on shelf, which is not always easy, but I see more and more brands doing it. A lot of French pharmacy brands are sold in the retail environment in selective retail, and I already have expiry date.
Marie: But yes, that means that if your retail, uh, if your shelf life is [00:25:00] under 36 months, you're going to have to be very good at stock rotation, uh, for yourself and also encouraging your retailer to, uh, track their stock so that you never get out of stock product.
Deanna: Yeah, no, I makes a big difference. I think. Um, so you're, um, an incredibly brilliant specialist.
Deanna: I have, I have none of this in my background, but I am going to claim that I have something in common with you, Marie. I, I think I, I think we both have a strong curiosity and a, and a love of learning. Um, I know you've, um, said in the past that microbiome science is especially exciting for you, partly because it's always new and it's growing so fast.
Deanna: And I'm hoping you can help us think about some of the more recent learnings that you're hearing about, or even what might be coming next in the whole world of microbiome.
Marie: Uh, so I'm just back from the Microbiome Congress, uh, that was in, uh, the Hague last week. And yeah, it's been, [00:26:00] uh, very interesting. You see the field evolving a lot, uh, both about what does a healthy microbiome look like, because everyone's got a different microbiome.
Marie: And also, uh, what bacteria are nice or not so nice, because 10 years ago when I started, the acne bacteria was something to destroy. And now we mostly see it as a good guy. Like it's a really strongly antioxidant bacteria. It can really be on your skin, uh, and actually help your skin and not give you acne at all.
Marie: So that's why it's so interesting. You've got like big, twist in the story of the microbiome. Uh, and this year, uh, we were seeing a little bit more about scalp microbiome, which I think is a very interesting subject, female microbiome, and that gets also into the big rise of intimate care in beauty. And holistic, uh, thing in general.
Marie: So the gut brain axis was of course really big, but more on the [00:27:00] health side. But I think it's a nice way, like, uh, we seem to be a lot into wellness, uh, at the moment in the cosmetic industry, the microbiome is exactly what you can do for wellness, but with science, because it links the. brain, the body in general, the face, the skin, and see not everything as separated, but actually part of a wall.
Marie: Uh, and yeah, we can develop good wellness products with good science. Thanks to the science of the microbiome.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Are you, um, able to say anything about, um, The patented microbes that are showing up on the market. I think this is quite interesting. Um, it's super fascinating.
Marie: That's so interesting because for me, I'm so happy to see new patented microbes going, uh, and being released with good results and good clinical results by, uh, ingredient manufacturer or in pharma.
Marie: Thank you. I'm more interested in the [00:28:00] prebiotics. That's always been my thing that if bringing good microbes to your skin helps so much, why don't you put your own microbes to work? Like you've got things on your skin that are alive and that are tailored for you. So that's why I like, it's funny because I've got these arguments all the time with other scientists and they all talk about the bacteria that can do that.
Marie: They can do that. Uh, and I'm like, yes, but like, what does the bacteria have? feed from, like, can you find me the actual food source and can I put it in a cosmetic product? Um, so I know that I'm a bit out of the field on this one because everyone is really interested in what bacteria and I'm a lot more interested in what prebiotic.
Deanna: Yeah, no, very cool. Very cool. Is there anything else you think we should know about microbiome skincare or the Galena brand? Uh,
Marie: I think microbiome skincare, it's only the start as one of my friend, uh, is always saying in the future, all skincare is going to be microbiome skincare. There's no alternative now that we discovered the microbiome and the role it has for skin.
Marie: There's no going back. So [00:29:00] that probably mean, uh, changing a lot of the things that Brands usually do in formulation thinking about preservatives, uh, surfactant emulsifiers, emollient, and the roles they play on the skin for the microbiome. And, uh, for Galeneno, we just released last week, uh, uh, well, Calming, uh, uh, Serum and Calming Microbiome Supplement.
Marie: Uh, and we've got more things coming, but. Give me a bit of time before the next lunch.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I know I made you think I was done asking questions, but your response there made me wonder if there is any, um, particular correlation between product format and the benefit or effect on the skin microbiome.
Deanna: Can you, can you talk about that? Uh,
Marie: well, yes, because if you take in account preservatives, for example, um, I don't want, I want to lower the possible contamination of products by fingers typically. So for us, Galinée, we made the choice of never using pots or never anything where you've got to dip your finger inside the pot so that [00:30:00] I can actually, uh, lower the contamination of the product.
Marie: Uh, so yeah, like we've got pumps, we've got tubes, but, uh, we don't really do pots. And I think there's more to do like there's a French pharmacy brands that did, uh, that was able to totally, uh, get rid of preservative just by having some super innovative packaging, uh, where they can keep the formula sterile.
Marie: Uh, and that's the kind of technical advance that makes it so interesting to watch what's going to go in the next few years.
Deanna: Yeah. Excellent. Thank you for that. Well, Marie, it has been a true education and joy to chat with you today. Thank you so much for joining me on the Cosmo Factory podcast. Thank you so much.
Deanna: Thank you so much for listening.
Deanna: If you find the CosmoFactory podcast useful, please take a moment to leave us a five star review and share your thoughts. So even more cosmetic industry professionals can discover the Cosmo Factory. I'm Deanna Utroske. Please [00:31:00] join me again next Tuesday for a new episode of the CosmoFactory podcast.