COSMOFACTORY

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Deanna: This episode is about metal materials. It's about finding circularity in existing waste management systems and consumer behaviors, and it's about how packaging engineering can help reduce plastic pollution. For today's Cosmo Factory podcast episode, I am joined by Kerry Leslie, CEO of Verity. Carrie, welcome to Cosmo Factory.
Kerri: Thanks, Deanna. It's great to see you.
Deanna: No, I'm so glad you're here. When we talk about sustainable beauty [00:01:00] packaging, a lot of frustration comes out of the limitations and inconsistencies of recycling infrastructure. Many packages and packaging components are recyclable or able to be recycled. The materials involved could, uh, reasonably be turned into new items, but a fair amount of those materials that do end up becoming waste, um, because of recycling infrastructure limitations.
You are approaching the beauty packaging supply chain from another angle one that maybe does not require the world of waste management to change. What is your approach to sustainable beauty packaging?
Kerri: Yeah, so like you mentioned, a lot of these materials, um, and plastic materials in particular are recyclable, but they're not very valuable to recyclers, and sometimes it costs them more money to sort through and find the materials to get them prepared for a seller. Then they can act, then the money they can actually make on that.
Um, and it's important to remember that they are a business, right? These murphs are a business and they make money from selling our trash. So our focus has been understanding what are [00:02:00] the most valuable materials in the recycling stream. That's what gives them the most likelihood of getting recycled and to use those materials in our design.
And those materials are metal, glass, and paper. And our team specifically, um, has a high specialization in metal materials and precision metal manufacturing.
Deanna: And just help me remember which materials you are working with, what, what metals in particular.
Kerri: aluminum and steel. We have experience with some other materials, but that's what makes the most sense for recycling systems and for the designs that we work with.
Deanna: Okay. Excellent. And we'll get into those designs a a little bit later.
Kerri: Yeah.
Deanna: Um, but I, I wanna. I think practically for our listeners, we know businesses around the world are dealing with very real market volatility right now in, in mid 2025 when we're talking. Uh, we as an industry have, have been through uncertainty before, uh, throughout 2020.
Um, I personally took. FaceTime calls from literally anyone and everyone in the cosmetics industry who wanted to talk. I'll be honest, at, you know, at that [00:03:00] time I needed the human connection. Um, and one of the challenges I heard over and over again that people were grappling with was the question of do we wait or should we do it now?
Brands were trying to decide about a next product launch. Ingredient makers, were talking with me, other suppliers were saying, you know, how do we figure out new strategies and platforms for customer sales, customer support? Do we move on this now? Um, and something you said to me the other day, Carrie, about the effect that new tariff policies are having on sustainability made me think that our industry is asking that same question again.
Do we wait? I, I wanna know from your perspective, are beauty brands today waiting to take action on sustainability? Are they waiting to invest in sustainable beauty packaging solutions?
Kerri: So it's been interesting. Now, obviously I'm just have a slice of the market of the folks that we talked to, so I don't, I don't know that it's broadly represented everywhere, but from my perspective and the contact I've had, um, I actually [00:04:00] saw more waiting. Uh, in the past probably. Last year there was more hesitation last year, just uncertainty.
And as it's actually interesting, there's almost, there's more uncertainty today, but I think there's been some fatigue to waiting. So I'm seeing some really brave brands actually take action this year and say, you know what? We're, this is important to us. It's important to our customers, it's important to our brand.
We're gonna go for it. And we know that the landscape might be shifting and the requirements of our products might be shifting, and where we're making them might be shifting, but we're not gonna stop. So I've been really inspired by the brands that we've been working with, that some of them are taking that action.
Um, it's easier for brands that are bringing new products to market. Um, doesn't necessarily have to be a new brand, but bringing a new collection to market than a. Business that already has a very, uh, defined price point on the shelf in retail and [00:05:00] very clear cost requirements on those goods. Now, it's more difficult for them to make a big switch right now because they're already seeing a lot of fluctuation and their cost of goods based on where they're receiving products and what day it hits the port. So adding any complexity, even shifting within the same materials to a new component, I've seen a lot of hesitation there.
Deanna: Okay.
Kerri: I think for new products, that's a more likely, opportunity, short term. But I think just like what we saw in 2020, it's all cyclical shakes out and we'll get to the other side of it.
So we have to stay optimistic and.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. You know, based on, on your experience in the industry, you know, historically, but also currently, can you say more about maybe the type of brands that are able to make these sustainability moves now? Or, or how you said, you know, how will it shake out? What, what kind of, what will we see?
I, I mean, I know you can't see the future, but, but you might have some perspective there.[00:06:00]
Kerri: Well, you know, I, it has to do with are there retail partners? Excited about reusable or more circular components. Um, and we're seeing, you know, Sephora and Alta making a lot of moves and, and trying to make it more possible for brands to have reusables on their shelf and really work cl closely with the brands.
So when it's important to the retailer, it's important to the brand and it's important to their consumer. They're finding ways to make it happen. Um. If that's not the case, if it's not coming from the consumer to the brand, if it's a really big mass product and mass channels, it maybe isn't as important right now.
So I'm seeing it more in the, um, mid-size, higher growth businesses that really have consumers that are looking and, and asking their brands to bring some alternatives and packaging. Um, it's, it makes more sense for them right now.
Deanna: Mm-hmm. No, that's helpful. I did mention packaging engineering in the introduction to this episode. I would love to know more about what your [00:07:00] team has created with the aluminum and stainless steel materials you mentioned.
Kerri: Yeah, so we actually come from a group of us come from the medical device space. So we've been in metal, precision metal manufacturing for a long time. The way we found our way into this market is I had started a personal care brand, really wanted to make circular packaging and wasn't able to find a partner to work with us to make us precision metal manufactured products.
Um, so we had to end up making our own containers, and that's actually how the company started. So. That's where our experience comes from and our engineering expertise in making these parts out of metal. And just think about, historically, if you saw metal components, they usually were sheet metal wrapped around plastic.
So the parts that were actually functioning and working together were plastic components. Plastic has a lot of flexibility. Um, doesn't have to be as tightly tolerant. It can work really nicely. But to have two pieces that are metal on metal and feel nice and click into place and stay [00:08:00] closed, that takes some nuance and that's where.
Our team has some experience that we can lend to the market.
Deanna: No, that's fantastic. And, and so tell us what's in your portfolio, what's in your product selection? What, what packages are available like this? Mm-hmm.
Kerri: so we really shine where there's a mechanism involved. That's the more difficult stuff that, uh, we're able to deliver. So we started off with solid stick components for deodorant, sunscreen, body sticks. Uh, we have a refillable, um, aluminum and steel versions of those containers. So the refill component is aluminum, so it's curbside recyclable, and the exterior case that's reusable can be made either out of aluminum or steel.
Uh, we also have reusable jar systems that have a similar format with a really simple aluminum low cost reusable. Um. Recyclable pods and you put it into a beautiful counter worthy vessel that's steel or aluminum that can be embossed or engraved and really something that you're not putting in your cabinet [00:09:00] and you're remembering to use every day.
Um, particularly, I know we talked about this before, we still don't wanna clutter on our countertop of all of the things, but the important things, your everyday peak, uh, serums or lotions or eye cream. And even, uh, more popular recently has been our supplement component. 'cause I don't know about you, but when I put my supplements into my cabinet, I forget about them.
But when they're sitting on my counter next to where I have my coffee, or even in the drawer where I have my coffee, then I remember to take it every day. So just making it more visible makes a difference. Um, and then our real hero product that the market's excited about is our all stainless pump. We've been asked for years to create this and we've developed it, so we'll probably be seeing that on the market next year, but it is available now when we're working with brands now on bringing this to market.
Deanna: Very cool. Very cool. That's helpful. And you mentioned this idea of precision metal manufacturing and I'm, I'm guessing that's [00:10:00] where these, uh, you know, tolerances, tight fits, you know, um, that sort of validating click comes in. But help me think more about what precision metal manufacturing means. It's, it's clear to me.
I think, you know, from what you said, may, or maybe it's not, help me here. There
Kerri: yeah. No, you're exactly right. It's, it's really about the tolerancing, right? So, um, for a tightly tolerant metal part. There's a lot of different ways you can fabricate metal, and depending on how many you're making, you'll use a different technique and there's a nuance in each one of those fabrication methods and keeping a tight tolerance, um, making sure there's predictability and making them over and over and over again, um, and ensuring consistent quality.
At the end of the line. So our team has a lot of experience in a large range of metal fabrication techniques. So it's not just, you know, plastic, it's typically just injection molded plastic, right? And there's one process and you can make it do anything. Plastic's a really amazing material, uh, for [00:11:00] that reason.
But there just takes a little bit more nuance and caution and experience and making things out of metal so that you've got. Predictable tolerance and things you do get that click, um, or that nice fit together and that smooth thread.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess that makes sense. Uh, you mentioned too that, you know, your, your, your specialty really is in these, you know, um, maybe more sophisticated designs. I'm wondering for, for some of the basic components, you know, jars that are aluminum, you know, we can go into a stationary shop and see one, you know, full of paperclips and the next day there's one in the cabinet full of face cream.
Is it the same at that sort of level of sophistication, or, or is there more work to be done for face cream?
Kerri: No. So the way that those containers are made, so we actually do also, um, carry those. We saw a full line of aluminum bottles, um, aluminum jars that are single use. And, um, the way that those are made a really high [00:12:00] volume and you typically have, um, a wider tolerance range. You'll notice a lot of those things will have a plastic cap.
Um, in many cases, sometimes there's a metal cap and sometimes that metal cap kind of gets stuck a little bit, or it grinds as you put it on. So that's what you're gonna get for a lower cost single use component. And in some cases, that's okay. You don't need it to feel like a luxury component. But if you're gonna put a multi-hundred dollar eye cream into that container.
You don't want the threads to grind and the top to fall off, right? There's, there's an acceptance that people have with the low cost components that sometimes the component will fail. And for our situation, for our customers, that's not an option.
Deanna: Yeah, and I guess hearing you say the word luxury makes me wonder too, is stainless steel more desirable for luxury brands than the aluminum?
Kerri: Uh, it depends. It depends on the type of product, right? If it's something that you wanna take with you on the go, you know, seal's heavy, which really conveys a lot of value and feels really nice in your hand. [00:13:00] I mean, it feels special, but maybe that's depending on the type of brand you are and the type of consumer may be.
You want your deodorant container out of aluminum 'cause you wanna toss it in your gym bag. Right. So it be much more lightweight.
Deanna: Excellent. I wanna talk a bit about products and, and formulations themselves. You know, one of the first concerns that comes to mind for me is temperature metals, uh, especially the ones you're working with, are very good conductors of heat and cold. How does this affect product stability?
Kerri: Yeah, so we all, all of the product development testing that we've done, of course we put our products in chambers and we're testing a range of formulas and we work in areas where we see a high, um. A wide range of formula compatibility with our components. Um, of course, no matter what material you're in, if you're in plastic, glass, or metal, you always wanna do your stability testing.
I talk to a lot of brands about this every day. People say, well, how different can it be? It's just like the other formula, just one [00:14:00] ingredient different. And I think anyone who's been in this industry for a long time knows one ingredient can make a difference. So it's always important to do your stability and compatibility.
Um, it. Typically, if it's gonna be in a stable temperature condition, it's going to say that temperature, right? It's just gonna hold on to heat or hold on to cold longer. So it might take a little bit longer to cool or, or longer to, uh, to warm up. Um. The time that we've, we work really closely with our contract manufacturers that fill on these product lines.
So sometimes there might be a small, uh, modification you have to make if it's a hot pour product, um, to the cooling tunnel or the speed that it goes through. So those are important considerations to make sure we're thinking about, but that's really the, the area where we've seen requires the most attention and it's been really manageable.
Deanna: Oh, that's interesting. Thank you for sharing that. I'm, I'm curious about, um, maybe some other matters of, of package formulation compatibility. And, and maybe this is a question about applicator [00:15:00] functionality to a, a certain extent, um, or dispensing, um, a bit. But is it practical to use all metal containers for every product category, for every format?
Are there places where this concept does not work?
Kerri: Yeah. No, it's not, I don't think it's practical everywhere. I think there's some scenarios where you need a, like a, we have, um, aluminum squeeze tubes, but if you need a flexible squeeze tube metal, can't flex. Like that, right? So it's not going to be replacing that same user experience. So we've worked with a lot of brands who have wanted to create an aluminum squeeze tube that has that same effect, and you have your trade-offs, right?
So you can either go to that circular component, the squeeze tube, and we've come a long way with dispensing. Um. Uh, keys, right? So there's a key. I'm sure everybody's seen those at this point, to roll up the bottom of the tube to make it a better user experience. Or there's even some countertop keys that we carry now too.
But if it needs to have that flex back feeling and that's part of the [00:16:00] brand, then it's not gonna be the right use case for that product. And I, and I think that's important to even within sustainable materials. There's a time and a place for everything and we're, we're one of those solutions and there's a lot of awesome companies out there and materials to fill in the rest of the product line.
Um, it has to make sense to provide that same value to your consumer so that you've got the customer loyalty, number one.
Deanna: Yeah. No, I love that there never is one solution to anything. Um, I am curious about metal as an aesthetic. You know, metallic finishes are very popular in packaging decoration. They're being used differently today, uh, than they were at the turn of the 21st century. But I'm, I'm wondering, are cosmetic brands and consumers attracted to metal packaging for its visual appeal?
Kerri: I think, again, that's very brand specific, but really like high-end luxury brands. You've always seen accents of gold and silver and when it's, when it's really, um, when it's real metal. Not just an overcoat of metal or metallic paint. It [00:17:00] feels different in your hand and it does convey value differently.
Um, I think when back to the countertop conversation, it is if it is going to be something you put on the counter. Brands are minimizing, uh, the copy that's on the outside of these reusable containers. It's more of a decorative piece and their brand is there. It's important to have that brand experience every day, but if you can just see the beauty of the metal shining through and not a bunch of words on your counter, it's got a more likely chance of staying there.
Deanna: That makes me wanna know, are you engraving?
Kerri: Yeah. Yeah. We can do engraving and embossing and de bossing to give a nice texture on your fingers as you're running your hand across the container. Mm-hmm.
Deanna: Okay. I like this answer. Um, so in my imagination, you're watching sustainable packaging closely, really as a sector. I'm, I'm curious if you're seeing anything in other countries, other industries, you know, solutions that maybe are bringing us closer to a circular packaging economy. You mentioned, you know, there are.
Um, it's not just you, right? [00:18:00] We, we need a lot of, a lot of companies and, and folks involved here. What are you seeing?
Kerri: I, I think there are a lot of really cool compostable materials coming to market. Um, and as our composting infrastructure grows, that's gonna be a really important piece of packaging. It. It's a tough challenge. I have friends who are scientists and founders in that space, and being able to come up with a, a material that will stay on your shelf.
For years and keep a product stable and then disappear is a really tough problem to solve. And they're, they're getting there, they're making a lot of, uh, a lot of. There's a lot of momentum in that space, and I think we'll get there and that will be a big part of the solution. Um, and we've actually been looking at how we can partner with those other materials and when there's an appropriate time to pair the materials together.
Um, right. If they, if they need something that's more durable for the long-term piece, we can make a metal component and they're making, uh, compostable refills. So you'll, you'll see some of those collaborations coming [00:19:00] soon too.
Deanna: Oh, I like this. Excellent. And, uh, you know, in, in my experience having interviews with entrepreneurs over the years, folks such as yourself, uh, commonly have many more ideas than you could ever possibly implement. Are there any solutions that you've dreamed up that you're comfortable sharing with us solutions that could, you know, maybe be a win for the industry if someone took them on and, and maybe that someone is listening now.
Kerri: I well. When we Yes, you, you were correct. Focus is a big problem for
Deanna: Mm-hmm.
Kerri: Um, when we first started the company, the vision was actually to be completely circular, where we would reuse everything and it would come back to get washed, not remade. And that's really truly the most sustainable way we could be using these containers, in my opinion.
Deanna: Mm-hmm.
Kerri: Um, that requires a lot of participation from retailers and reverse logistics to execute. So for my brand noco, we did that. We actually had containers sent back through USPS on a regular, um, daily route [00:20:00] of your mail carrier would come back to our facility and we put it through a validated cleaning process so we can clean, sanitize and put them back into use.
And we learned a lot in that experience. And what was really cool is to see the engagement over. The first over like four year period. It's kind of what it took to get people really engaged and then we were almost getting as many back. As we were putting out, which was really awesome to see, but it's a small sector of the market that's ready for that.
And so as we're advising customers who are going into retail, if it's not, if the reverse logistics are not at the retail facility, it's not really practical for it to work. So. We're taking the baby step where they have this reusable case, but the insert is something they can curbside recycle at home.
But long term, I would love to see us get to a place where we really could just be bringing all of our steel cups back to target and toss them in a bin to get washed rather than, and getting our deposit back. So that's, that was the real [00:21:00] vision. I'd love to see somebody execute there. And I am always here to offer free advice on anybody in the circular.
Entrepreneurship space to tell them the things that we've done wrong and the mistakes we've made to help them get there faster. But I think it's the future. One day, I just don't know when we're
Deanna: Yeah. No, that's fantastic. You know, and I, I, you know, I, I appreciate that I, I know that there is a lot of ideas sharing going on, especially, um, with, you know, a focus on, on circularity and sustainability. Um, and, and we need that. We, we mentioned from time to time, especially when we talk packaging, uh, the fashion industry, right?
And there are certainly retailers building those reverse logistics now for clothing take back. Um, and so I, I wonder, um, maybe it's coming because some of those clothing companies do have like personal care lines and go, what were you gonna think?
Kerri: No, I was just gonna give a shout out to PACT and all of the great work they've done in helping re recycle the [00:22:00] unrecyclable. Right. So trying to be able to take back some of that and just, just the fact that they're doing that and they've been, I mean, credo is able to create that all PCR pump out.
Deanna: might not know about pact. It's a, it's a US based, is it a.
Kerri: Yeah, it's a nonprofit and they're, they're working with beauty retailers to take back components that are not recyclable. So we, we know the folks at PACT well, and we, I really admire the entire founding team and what they've created there. Um, because there are, realistically today there are so many.
Components that just won't get recycled, and it's not practical for them to just go away. There's a lot of consumers using these products and their businesses that are supported by it. So what do we do now in the interim before they're actually curbside recyclable? Our business is focusing on.
Introducing materials that are Curb ci. Recyclable Pact is taking care of the ones that are not, and trying to find a way to recycle some of those components. So there's bins at Credo, Sephora, and [00:23:00] Alternate. I think you can. Drop off your unrecyclable and they're taking them back and they're actually paying to sort through.
'cause that's the challenge. The Murph can't afford to sort through this stuff 'cause they won't be able to make money from it. But their organization is actually paying people and training them to sort through separate materials and find a way to recycle them,
Deanna: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Manual solutions in an automated world. Right.
Kerri: yeah.
Deanna: Interesting. Well, Carrie, your company, as you mentioned, is working very much with timeless materials, and still you have such a fresh take on beauty packaging. Thank you so much for this conversation for being a guest on the Cosmo Factory Podcast.
Kerri: Well, thanks for having me. It was great to be here. [00:24:00]