COSMOFACTORY

Deanna: [00:00:00] This episode is about economic theory and risk management. It is about looking at ingredient sourcing, r and d, and brand strategy from a fresh angle. It's about horizontal learning and it's about the market dynamics of co devo. Today on the Cosmo Factory Podcast, I am speaking with Linda Dempah, co-founder and chef Don to Priest at Labis aba.
Linda, welcome to Cosmo Factory.
I'm looking forward to our conversation.
If you would [00:01:00] start us off by explaining the
mathematical and economic concept of anti-fragility. What is this?
Linda: Sure. So the term Antifa was Naim Tale. And he wrote, um, a book. About it. Um, that is part of a, a series of book on risk management that he's well known for, called, uh, in Concerto. So when we, we think about anti fragility, which is at, at the onset, it is a, a trading term.
It is a, it is a term that helps explain the properties of people, things, trading strategies. That gain from chaos, that gain from it gets its head chopped off, grows back two heads. So actually benefits from, from the chaos and from the disorder.
Deanna: Excellent.
Linda: Um, so when you apply this theory [00:02:00] to, to the beauty world and why I found it so fascinating in the context of Ko Divo.
Is that when we think about the ingredients that are traditionally used in cosmetics and the whole structure and the skills and the competencies knowledge developed around it, you realize that we have a very good anti-fragile ba, anti-fragile base of ingredients and knowledge. So I, I call those ingredients.
They're not, not just in antifragile, they, they're legendary, right? People have talked about those ingredients for hundreds of years, and what makes it interesting and what makes it compelling for use in cosmetics, in the bio cosmetics industry, in a place like TiVo, it doesn't have the most advanced r and d facilities, is that the fact that those ingredients are anti-fragile allow us to de-risk.
Our, our, our, our formulations because if we don't have access to, [00:03:00] to labs with equipment and machines worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, we do know that we have access to ingredients that have been tested by time and time in the context of entire fragility in the context of mathematics is actually the most rigorous I can empathize. It was tough.
Deanna: We do silly things to ourselves like this, but let me just, um, I. No, thank you for all of that. So, you know, there was a independent beauty movement. And there were of course, a, a handful of brand origin stories that were relatively common. Um, and one of the story elements that comes to mind, um.
You know, regarding our conversation, you know, I heard many strategy. will you strategy. I know, um, economics is, is not just like, um, a side interest of yours.
You studied it at university level. sense,
but, but will you share, like when you [00:04:00] recognized that this economic theory had relevance in terms
of skincare and, and you really sort of committed to, to
merging the two.
Linda: That, that is such a great question. Um, so, so I think for me, as I started at Deva, I knew that there were some Ingredients. There were some plants, some botanical extracts that existed in VO that that were powerful and that could solve many skincare and haircare problematics. But I was simply unknown. And as I, as I started exploring and I started testing, I also realized that the language of beauty nowadays is a scientific language.
Like people talk about, um, clinical trials, they talk about r and d labs. They talk about all the testing that the products have, um, have gone through. And, um, [00:05:00] as I said that with my project, and I, I mean that was, as I was working on it, I was just trying to, I was trying to, I was just trying to figure out how to bridge the gap between.
What I knew were excellent ingredients. And how did I know that? I mean, everybody around me knew that, and that that counts for something like in my head, like, that must count for something. Right?
So what I knew were great ingredients and what I of thermo cosmetics and active cosmetics that we are bringing in as well.
Deanna: And I'm sorry, I interrupted you. You were, you were sharing about really creating this idea of, of anti-fragile and
Linda: Yes. Yes. And then at the same time as, as I was working on this, on this project, and I think that was around 2019, um, so about a couple of years after we officially started, um, I. I had read Antifragile, so I, I knew about it. And then I had an opportunity to actually attend, um, a training in [00:06:00] New York, um, that was led by Talleb and his team on the, on, on the whole, um, on the whole idea, on the whole theory, and it's usually attended by hedge fund traders and, um, mathematicians and whatnot.
And to me, that's, that's at that point that I realized that well. The way I understand this theory, I actually think it is the answer to like, um, like how to communicate about those amazing ingredients, those amazing the, the folks that are coined it and that, that were using it on a daily basis. So, uh, Yeah. that, that 2019 was the, was was the time when it all sort of came together.
Deanna: Yeah. No, That's fantastic. That's fantastic. share, um, a fairly, you
know, specific example so we can get our head around this a little better?
Linda: Sure. So, so one way we, we look, we, we look at ingredient. One way we find, I would say, innovative ingredients [00:07:00] to, to use is by by talking to folks. In villages by talking to, um, and, and it will sound cliche, but grandmothers, grandfathers, and EB talks about the grandmother's wisdom by, by talking to traditional TiVo, and basically listening to what they tell us about the ingredients that they use and how long they've been using them and how they use them.
So, so. Our starting point is not a blank page. Our starting point is the, the knowledge that's been accumulated over the years. So that basically makes just a selection of the ingredient itself, anti-fragile. And then, um. What we also look at is, okay, so there's this, we, we've spoken to 10 people at the photos about this ingredient.
Can we find it elsewhere? Like what are the, what are the legends around this ingredient in all [00:08:00] those different places? And, um, there's one in ingredient that I, I absolutely love, which is, um, it's called SFU oil. And that ingredient has a legend around it that goes back to the 16th century. And it's about, uh, a queen who had some jealous rivals.
Who then attacked her after the, after the death of the king and caused her to lose her beauty to, to become disfigured. And legend has it that she was told to travel from Senegal, where she was based all the way to Cameroon. So it goes from West Africa all the way to the center of Africa, which is, I mean, at the time must have been like days of traveling and to go meet this other queen in Cameroon.
And the secret is that the secret this other queen gave her to restore her beauty was SFU oil. So, so when we have legends like that, and then we have folks around us who tell [00:09:00] us, Hey, we've been using this oil this way. And, and, and, and the amazing part is that so many of those ingredients that we use are multifunctional.
Like you could, they don't, like, they don't actually have a singular purpose, a single purpose. And I think that would be one of the main differences between the bio cosmetics as we see it and what's being done in labs. Okay. In labs, it's truly, it's very, it's very much about targeting and being specific, and I'm using X amount of onic acid to achieve this particular result.
However, the ingredients that we use, what we need to do is to make sure that as we process them, we don't destroy the properties because we want to make sure that the person using those, those products, using those ingredients, can benefit from all their multiple properties. So that's the other element, um, in our [00:10:00] sourcing that, that, that helps inform our sourcing and how we go about, uh,
Deanna: component, uh, from a particular plant extract or what have you, divide it up right into its constituent pieces. And, and sometimes, um, you know, companies will then blend a few of these together for various reasons. Um, but I do see ingredient makers, again, again, it's an emerging trend. It's not robust at this point, but kind of moving away from that.
Fraction style of ingredients into what they're describing as more holistic ingredients. And, and, you know, different companies are approaching this in different ways, but I think part of the inspiration for that, um, emerging movement is the fact that, um, I think. You know, this wellness shift in our industry, the consumer is looking for very holistic benefits You know, you've. You've mentioned, um, the luxury of this, um, and, and really sort of suggested to, or maybe does not equate to being [00:11:00] slower, to being smaller.
Um, I I'm ideas like seasonal sourcing, you've brought that up. Um, more of an independent brand approach, I guess. something I of business growth where your brand is right now, just a phase. Do you have long-term plans to scale the brand into something global?
We think of, um, maybe brands like Tatcha or asap, um, I'm sorry, brands like Tatcha or asap. Um, both of which were acquired by major multinationals is this sort of small artisanal luxury ingredients.
Um, sort of a place of growth along your brand's
trajectory, or is this a space that you want to own?
Linda: Well, I think not only is it a place of growth, I think it is a required place of growth because I think if as a world,
um, we take the threat of climate change seriously, then we'll need to think about moving away from pitch for cosmetics into [00:12:00] bios. So then the, the question flips, it's about, it's not about, it's about.
It's not about whether or not it is a place of growth, but it's about how do we make it a place of growth? And if we, if, if we, if we change the, the, the, we change the frame. If we reframe that way, then we can think of solutions that can actually, um, uh, take a brand like mine to much, to much higher levels.
And I, and I'll give you an example. Um, one brand, I am not sure I'm allowed to, to, to quote it, but one to, to site. To say the name, but one very, very known, uh, very well known French brand. It's global, uh, sells, uh, a, a cream with she butter in it every three seconds in the world. So that means that they are able to get enough supply to, to, to fulfill their demand.
And that's from a tree that we can't, can't really plant right now. So I think there is room [00:13:00] to grow. And I also, there, I also think there is room to be smart about, um, what we choose as, as ingredients for, for our co for our cosmetics. So, so I, I go back to FU Oil. Um, it's a very expensive ingredient right now.
It, it's, it costs about, um, I think it's about $60 a liter. Uh, uh, Inco or something in, in, in the US or elsewhere in world. It's like the, the price might be like tenfold that, so it, it is a precious oil. But I do know for, I do know for a fact that we can plant, and I've been to sfu uh, plantations, and we can, we can, we, we can, we can make this a, um, an actual crop.
Which I, one thing that's so interesting about, uh, those ingredients that they, they tend to grow on trees. So that actually goes into the whole idea of, uh, sustainability of regenerative type of beauty, right? Because if we plant trees, we know we are [00:14:00] gonna be using the fruits, but we are also restoring our soil.
We are also doing things that actually help humanity on a, on, on a much global. On, on, on a much, on a much wider, uh, bigger scale. So for me it's like not so much as whether or not it is scalable, but it's truly like how do we make that happen?
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. And I think my next question kind of builds on that, or, or asks us, asks about how the industry can build on that. If, if you see this anti fragility functioning as a model for the larger industry, how might brands or suppliers of
any size put this theory into practice?
Linda: So that's a very good question and I, and I think that's something around. There's something around disruption, right? Going back to, to, uh, economic theory or business theory. I mean, there are things that larger companies simply cannot do because it, they're not set up for it and they don't have the infrastructure for it.
It becomes too [00:15:00] expensive. It becomes, it's too slow. It doesn't generate returns as quickly for them. So, so I mean. Call me competitive or something that I just think we should replace them. I was like, um, it's, um, it's a matter of, um, are, are we set up to to, to do r and d? That is not like, um, your, your, your define definitive 69 month product.
Product development cycle. Like are we, are we, are we already set up to do r and d That involves just going and interviewing folks in, in villages, um, for a month and then coming up with the interviews and are we comfortable with that? And I don't actually think that everybody will, like, even in that, everybody will be comfortable with that.
Even in koziar you have, you, you have folks who are create quite negatively when you. When you attempt to modernize traditional ingredients, they, they, um, [00:16:00] for them it's, it's because those tra those ingredients are traditional, then they must remain in that domain of being murky and approachable and who knows what, what, what goes in there.
But that doesn't, that doesn't have to be the case at all. Um, but I am not sure to, to go back to, to go back to your, your question, like, I'm not sure that all the bigger brands are equipped, um. To handle, to handle, uh, anti-fragile ingredients or to handle an anti-fragile approach to r and d simply because that's historically, that's not what they've been doing.
Deanna: Yeah, it,
Linda: and that's just, yeah.
Deanna: yeah, no, it makes me think that. If someone were intrigued by this idea, but they recognize that they're not set up in that way, it might make sense to sort of interrogate the business in terms of how have we created a resilient BO business model, or how have we created perhaps even a fragile business model.
Um, and sort of reflect on [00:17:00] that. Um, you know, you mentioned a little bit about. What's, um, you know, what you hear back, um, from certain consumers perhaps, um, or, or groups in the industry there in co devore. I will say, uh, you're the first person from this country who have had the opportunity to interview on
Cosmo factory. If you don't mind, I do wanna ask if, if you would share a little bit about consumer trends that you are seeing
locally that, that are particularly exciting.
Linda: Sure. So, so right now in Cozi, I, I call it, um. Almost like there's, um, from Wakanda, from the Black Panther, the Marvel movie. There's almost like a Wakanda trend where, um, folks are realizing that we have amazing ingredients and we have amazing, uh, um, potential locally, and they are seeking out brands who are working on those ingredients while making them.
Be more accessible maybe in terms of the smells, in terms of the texture. So, [00:18:00] so, so you do have that, that trend and it, it, it's, it remains niche, but, uh, I can definitely see it grow, um, if the brands that are involved in that industry manage to make it, uh, sexy and manage to keep it accessible. Um, this, the, the most, I mean, the biggest part of the cosmetics industry in West Africa, in Ziar.
Is actually for quite toxic products that are, uh, used to bleach the skin. So that trend has been around for years and I don't see it, I don't see it biting anytime soon. And honestly, I, I can only see it, see that trend being, um, see that, see that change in like, um, almost like a subtle, like non-confrontational, like very.
Um, subconscious way even, um, because the, [00:19:00] we need to be able to address the deeper reasons why people go towards these types of products, like the beauty standards and all that. And that's not going to be done by, by shouting it or by saying, oh, this, this is terrible. Use my product instead. No, it's just going to be done.
Just, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just. Beauty marketing, which I love, which is beauty marketing is the most inspiring marketing, right? It's like aspirational. You make, make you make people dream, give you, give them what they want. So, so that's, that's what we need to do to, to reverse that trend. Um, so that, that's what I see that it is almost like those two parallel path happening and it, and it's amazing how you go from using ingredients and using formulations.
Just not good for you, but they're good for your health, they're good for your community, they're good for the environment on one end. And on the other hand, you're using ingredients that are known to give cancer, that are known to make, [00:20:00] um, uh, healing like your skin healing much more difficult. Um, and, and, and we all, we all are existing in the same market and we are all trying to, uh, to get market share.
It's, it's amazing. It's fascinating.
Deanna: Yeah. Yeah, no, thank you for that. And you know, you mentioned market share there. I, I'm wondering if you can, um, give us a little is in that
space, it could be useful.
Linda: Okay,
Deanna: Sorry, and this will be our, our last question. So.
Linda: worries. Um. So, uh, so I'm just gonna say a deba. Um, we are still very small. Like we, I mentioned we are going on our, our 10th
year. Um, but when we did our, our a market market research project last year, we had less than 2% penetration in the. On the, in the OV market, like we have about, uh, 16 products. And, um, at the height when we were doing, uh, uh, [00:21:00] amazing amazingly well as far as our marketing income, we reached about, uh, 50 million CFA in in revenue, which.
It's about a hundred thousand, um, dollars, which is a lot for it's, and nothing. Uh, when we think about the beauty industry in the US or globally, so we have a lot of room to grow and, and we share the space with huge companies. I mean, they're, they're like the, the sea of the gun or the dream cosmetics that are industrials that churn out like hundreds of thousands of products a day and that distribute all over West Africa.
So these are, these, these are true, like they're true Hamad. And we also are sharing the space with smaller, uh, niche brands, like similar, similar to ours. And, um, I can think of you, I can think of it's a brand called You. There's a brand called Perfect. And, um, these are, these are local brands that are um, go trying to [00:22:00] address the needs of the smaller niche, uh, niche market. Um, so in, in terms of, in terms of s are some of the two local, some of, like, if we think about local beauty industries, these are the two types of local companies we have. And then of course we have a ton of imported, uh, products, especially, um, in places like pharmacies where, um, there's uh, a play for derma cosmetics, for cosmetics that address specific skincare and healthcare.
Problems. Then you get a ton of the, of the well-known, uh, labis, not just so you have all, all the French, all the French friends that are, um, there, the present in, uh, in, in, um, in power. Like they're very, um, all over in pharmacies, in, in. So that's pretty much the, the, the setup I would say,
Deanna: Yeah. No, I'm glad you shared that. Thank you. And Linda, I have to say, this was all truly fascinating. It has been very nice [00:23:00] speaking with you today. Thank you for being a guest on the Cosmo Factory podcast.
Linda: Anytime.